Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
So, my 93-year old stepdad passed away last year. He and my mom (who passed a couple of years ago) lived in the south of Spain, where they retired to a golf course community. Anyway, he occupied himself with "collecting" older US stamps, a habit he got into while they were living in Phoenix, 1980-2002.
To call his efforts "a collection" is perhaps a misnomer; it's more like a messy accumulation of loose album pages, boxes, glassines, occasional stock books and loose stamps. They traveled a good bit, and he liked to go to stamp shows and buy wads of old album pages, "box lots" and the like. I know he intended to put it all in an album "some day," but he never got that far. But he had a good time with it, even as both his visual and mental acuity slowly slipped away.
So now my office is graced by the presence of two moving boxes containing all the stamps he accumulated. I entertained thoughts of just selling the whole thing "en masse," but I can hear my stepdad in the background, raging because I "gave" all this stamps to "some dealer" for a couple of hundred bucks. And maybe that's fair, as there are 100's-- if not 1000's of "worthwhile" stamps in these boxes. I'm also aware dealers don't pay much for "sorter lots."
I am not interested in starting a US collection. So the "option" I'm choosing is to slowly sift through this debris, find the better/higher quality individual items and auction them (here, and eBay, I suppose), and perhaps sell the remains "by the pound." Seeing as how I have plenty on my plate, already, it'll probably take me a couple (or more) years to get through it all. I'm going to put the (net) proceeds into a college fund for my grandson (he's currently two)... which is incentive to "pay attention."
But enough pre-amble. Just from the initial poking at the corners of the boxes (and the ONE batch I put out on eBay, earlier this week), I've come to realize that I pretty much know NOTHING about early US... and the early issues (up through the Washington-Franklins) seem like a minefield of printings, papers, grills, watermarks and tiny nuances in color... which-- in spite of my 45-years as a stamp collector-- feel both mystifying and intimidating. I admire the US collectors who can cast a cursory glance at a 2c carmine and declare "Yeah, that's a 358," as casually as if they were asking me to pass the salt.
It took me SIX TIMES longer to adequately identify, describe and list 148 items on eBay-- as compared to how long it would have taken me, were they from Denmark or Sweden, which I know well. There were times when I was about to thrown my Scott Specialized across the room in frustration, because I'd missed some "except when there's a full moon on Tuesdays" exception! So I guess I will be getting an "education," as I go along.
Well, I guess I just used 500 words to say "Wow, early US is DIFFICULT, if you're a beginner!"
I appreciate you putting up with my wordy rambling!
Peter
Below are some of the "nicer looking" items I picked out, yesterday:
This was really brighter and fresher than the picture gives it credit for. WAY nicer than any of the others, on that particular page.
I thought the cancel on this one was pretty interesting. I'm guessing this is what US collectors would classify as a "fancy" cancel...
This one was just eye-catching because of the very DEEP carmine color of the stamp, offset by the bright RED cancel.
This caught my eye because the stamp is SUPER bright in color, and the purple cancel was nice and subtle. The colored cancels are one the cooler things I'm learning about classic US.
It seemed like a nice looking stamp, but I'm guessing that's actually a pre-cancel? The only pre-cancels my limited experience knows are the all-uppercase place names between solid lines... here we have TWO lines, and it's off-center and almost looks hand applied?
Login to Like
this post
Dear Peter,
I'm one of those U.S.Classics collectors you refer to, and your thoughts weren't actual ramblings as thinking out loud. If you think I could be of help to you as you puzzle/sort through stuff, that's what stamppals are for. If you're going to do it mainly on your own, you'll need to become familiar with the USA 1847 site. If you need a URL let me know.
All good thoughts,
Dan C.
cohendaniel64@yahoo.com
Login to Like
this post
Peter, what strikes me immediately is the fabulous centering on all the examples you showed. Both the 6c stamps were nearly perfectly centered, and this from a period when centering was not a concern at all.
And, yes, early US is more difficult, although I find that with age, some things become easier.
David
Login to Like
this post
An interesting post, Peter. I still, sort of, collect U.S. stamps, but I've long since given up trying to identify some early issues. Beverly Fox, co-owner of Weeda Stamps (an on-line auction house), once told me that even after decades of selling stamps she is also intimidated by this material. More power to you for moving ahead with your project!
Your stamp images reminds me of one of my album pages, which I have shared previous in this discussion board. Here it is again; I bought all of the stamps (U.S. Scott #65, I believe)from a very small dealer in Cottonwood, Arizona. Note that two of them (the second and third in the top row) have identical cancellations but are obviously not from the same sheet (and may not even be the same issue for all I know!). And it looks like one was cancelled at a later time than the other, because one "spoke" in the second one is shorter than in the first one, which seems to have a crack in the same spoke.
Any more information anyone can give me about these stamps or cancellations would be appreciated.
Bob
Here's a detail image of the two identical cancellations:
Login to Like
this post
Peter:
Your step-father appears to have been among the trail-blazers on the path you're going down - so many stamp-collecting projects, so little time. I'm on this crowded path and enjoying every fast-fleeting moment of it, labours of love.
Here's a quixotic observation: when compiling my album of USA stamps, I had no difficulty with posting early Americans. I now conclude it was that easy because I was a "beginner". If and when I get enough "disposable" time, I shall double-check to see if those stamps are correctly identified. Definitely not a priority task.
I owe you a few shekels for stamps and your comments about an university fund for your grandchild have given me a guilty conscience.
Perseverance with your endeavours,
John Derry
Login to Like
this post
Thanks all, for your responses!
Dan, thanks for the offer-- I may take you up on that, when I get hopelessly stuck!
Bob, nice looking cancels-- I'm enjoying finding a few similar, in my stepdad's hoard.
About these early US cancels-- I've seen them referred to as "cork" cancels... so I wonder, did the local postmaster in these towns literally sit down with a piece of cork and a pen knife and create these?
Peter
Login to Like
this post
Nope, not cork, or so I understand. Cork wouldn't hold up against the constant pounding. Instead, "cork" cancellers were apparently made of hard rubber and perhaps other materials. Anyone else have information?
Bob
Login to Like
this post
Dear Peter,
That was exactly what they did early on-later the canceling devices "were issued to those larger post offices with sufficient proceeds in postage to receive handstamps at government expense". For those that were too small the postmaster had to supply the cancel at his own expense.Thus the manuscript cancel for so many of the early issues in lieu of the fancier cancel device.
Bob, those are beautiful strikes. Clearly the collection was of the cancels, not the more common stamps on which they are found.
Thanks for the chance to see them.
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
The American Philatelic Society has introduced a service called "Quick ID". For a fee, they will identify a scan of a stamp. It is quite useful when you are really stuck. They also offer publications on identifying the early US and the always vexing Washington's and Franklin's. In terms of disposing of the "collection" having it appraised by two or three different dealers might give you an even better idea of it's value than plowing through it on your own.
Personally, my idea of heaven is to sort through an old collection because who knows what you might find to add to your own collection.
Login to Like
this post
We might be playing with words here, but I don't know of any stamp dealers who wouldn't charge an arm and a leg for appraising even a small stamp collection.
As any collector who has ever opened a catalogue knows, it can take hours to track down the value of even a few stamps. Most dealers can quickly look through a collection and determine it it would be worth accepting on consignment or purchasing outright, but they just don't have time to do a true appraisal without a guarantee that it will be worth their time.
I am often asked, usually by relatives of deceased collectors, how they can turn the collections into cash. My short answer: Show what seems to be a representative sample of the collection to a dealer to see if they're interested in handling its sale. I get so many of these queries that in self-defence I wrote an article about the subject, "What to do when you inherit stamps".
Bob
Login to Like
this post
I have nothing intelligent to add, but as a classics collector I appreciate the photos of these fine philatelic pieces.
Login to Like
this post
Bob,
What I meant was to have the dealers evaluate the collection or accumulation with an eye toward making an offer. One does not have accept the offer.
Les
Login to Like
this post
Hey! Pete! what was that address again?
Login to Like
this post
I am glad to see I am not the only one who doesnt want to dive head first into this area. I would like to get my USA used stamp album sorted properly to see what I need and what not. Hopefully one of these days it will happen but for now it is not even on a burner yet.
Login to Like
this post
Les, I should have written earlier, but dealers will be giving you their buy price, which is completely different from an appraisal. That buy price will give you some sense what it's worth intact to a dealer, but that's all
Login to Like
this post
Not to be against Dealers as people but their skills leave a lot to be desired.Heaps of them undercut the hobby.
Many dealers in my region wonder why I keep away from them.They tell me they have declining sales.It is no rocket science but these dealers asked for lower interest with their unreasonable prices.
Login to Like
this post
What are you referring to by "unreasonable" prices? What they offer to buy, or what they are selling stamps for? What is unreasonable about it to you?
Login to Like
this post
I agree with michael78651: In my experience, dealers nearly always charge somewhere between 20% and 80% of a stamp's catalogue value. And it's not like most retail situations, where a store receives pre-packaged merchandise and has only to unpack it, price it, and display it. Many long hours go into preparing stamps for sale; if stamp prices actually reflected the labour involved in selling them, they would be much higher than they are.
One problem dealers face is ignorant collectors: I once had an approval stamp returned after the potential buyer had requested a copy of it. The one I sent was beautiful and well worth the $10 I was charging. The potential buyer enclosed an angry note with the returned stamp: "If I had $10 to spend, I certainly wouldn't spent it on a stamp!"
There are some ignorant sellers, too. I know a vest-pocket dealer who routinely overprices his stamps and covers. And he underprices some because he doesn't bother learning about his stock. I collect postal history and stamps of the Occupied Channel Islands. The evidence seems to be that every Channel Islander collected postal history; domestic philatelic covers are very common, especially FDCs. (I exaggerate, of course: I'm sure that one or two people weren't collectors!) In any event, any dealer worth his salt knows the that most Channel Island covers are philatelic. But I have one commercial Occupation cover, a ratty #10 envelope addressed to a school, which I bought for only $3 from the aforesaid dealer. I have no doubt I could sell it for 10 times what I paid for it. The dealer doesn't seem to know the difference between philatelic covers and commercial covers, and his pricing makes him seem just plain greedy. And two other things about him really bug me: He won't bargain (his attitude seems to be "Up yours!" if you make a lower offer), and he often shows nice items ("You'll really like this!), but when you ask how much he wants for it he'll tell you indignantly that it's not for sale. Grrrr!
Bob
Login to Like
this post
04:11:36pm
I suspect we have all met some quirky buyers as well as sellers. But there is a reason. A quirky business like collecting stamps, and more so selling stamps professionally requires a quirky personality.
I suspect it comes with the territory and makes for amusement, amazement and sometimes embelishment, during those long dark evenings around the hot stove league.
Login to Like
this post
I appreciate the continued feedback, here.
I am very familiar with this "type" of lot/collection, because it's precisely the type of lot I look for, in my own area of interest-- Scandinavia. LOADS of loose album pages, delapidated stock books, stock sheets, glassines, little cardboard boxes, envelopes and very little order.
I believe this is also what some refer to as a "job lot."
Very few dealers would offer much, because of the amount of WORK needed to extract the value. Most likely, I'd get an offer for $800-1000, then the dealer MIGHT take three days to try to cherry pick the best for his stock, then he'd try to flip the balance in a quick sale to someone in his customer base who's a "treasure hunter." He'd make a quick $500, and pick up 50-100 better items for his stock.
Since I have time, and am not hot-to-trot to liquidate-- AND I've set myself this goal of stowing away some $$$ for my grandson's college, someday-- I can probably extract 10-15 times that, bit by bit.
In the process, I am LEARNING a lot of new stuff!
~Peter
Login to Like
this post
As some of you know, I mostly collect Scandinavia. I dabble a bit in Machins, and Australian 'Roos.
So, my 93-year old stepdad passed away last year. He and my mom (who passed a couple of years ago) lived in the south of Spain, where they retired to a golf course community. Anyway, he occupied himself with "collecting" older US stamps, a habit he got into while they were living in Phoenix, 1980-2002.
To call his efforts "a collection" is perhaps a misnomer; it's more like a messy accumulation of loose album pages, boxes, glassines, occasional stock books and loose stamps. They traveled a good bit, and he liked to go to stamp shows and buy wads of old album pages, "box lots" and the like. I know he intended to put it all in an album "some day," but he never got that far. But he had a good time with it, even as both his visual and mental acuity slowly slipped away.
So now my office is graced by the presence of two moving boxes containing all the stamps he accumulated. I entertained thoughts of just selling the whole thing "en masse," but I can hear my stepdad in the background, raging because I "gave" all this stamps to "some dealer" for a couple of hundred bucks. And maybe that's fair, as there are 100's-- if not 1000's of "worthwhile" stamps in these boxes. I'm also aware dealers don't pay much for "sorter lots."
I am not interested in starting a US collection. So the "option" I'm choosing is to slowly sift through this debris, find the better/higher quality individual items and auction them (here, and eBay, I suppose), and perhaps sell the remains "by the pound." Seeing as how I have plenty on my plate, already, it'll probably take me a couple (or more) years to get through it all. I'm going to put the (net) proceeds into a college fund for my grandson (he's currently two)... which is incentive to "pay attention."
But enough pre-amble. Just from the initial poking at the corners of the boxes (and the ONE batch I put out on eBay, earlier this week), I've come to realize that I pretty much know NOTHING about early US... and the early issues (up through the Washington-Franklins) seem like a minefield of printings, papers, grills, watermarks and tiny nuances in color... which-- in spite of my 45-years as a stamp collector-- feel both mystifying and intimidating. I admire the US collectors who can cast a cursory glance at a 2c carmine and declare "Yeah, that's a 358," as casually as if they were asking me to pass the salt.
It took me SIX TIMES longer to adequately identify, describe and list 148 items on eBay-- as compared to how long it would have taken me, were they from Denmark or Sweden, which I know well. There were times when I was about to thrown my Scott Specialized across the room in frustration, because I'd missed some "except when there's a full moon on Tuesdays" exception! So I guess I will be getting an "education," as I go along.
Well, I guess I just used 500 words to say "Wow, early US is DIFFICULT, if you're a beginner!"
I appreciate you putting up with my wordy rambling!
Peter
Below are some of the "nicer looking" items I picked out, yesterday:
This was really brighter and fresher than the picture gives it credit for. WAY nicer than any of the others, on that particular page.
I thought the cancel on this one was pretty interesting. I'm guessing this is what US collectors would classify as a "fancy" cancel...
This one was just eye-catching because of the very DEEP carmine color of the stamp, offset by the bright RED cancel.
This caught my eye because the stamp is SUPER bright in color, and the purple cancel was nice and subtle. The colored cancels are one the cooler things I'm learning about classic US.
It seemed like a nice looking stamp, but I'm guessing that's actually a pre-cancel? The only pre-cancels my limited experience knows are the all-uppercase place names between solid lines... here we have TWO lines, and it's off-center and almost looks hand applied?
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
Dear Peter,
I'm one of those U.S.Classics collectors you refer to, and your thoughts weren't actual ramblings as thinking out loud. If you think I could be of help to you as you puzzle/sort through stuff, that's what stamppals are for. If you're going to do it mainly on your own, you'll need to become familiar with the USA 1847 site. If you need a URL let me know.
All good thoughts,
Dan C.
cohendaniel64@yahoo.com
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
Peter, what strikes me immediately is the fabulous centering on all the examples you showed. Both the 6c stamps were nearly perfectly centered, and this from a period when centering was not a concern at all.
And, yes, early US is more difficult, although I find that with age, some things become easier.
David
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
An interesting post, Peter. I still, sort of, collect U.S. stamps, but I've long since given up trying to identify some early issues. Beverly Fox, co-owner of Weeda Stamps (an on-line auction house), once told me that even after decades of selling stamps she is also intimidated by this material. More power to you for moving ahead with your project!
Your stamp images reminds me of one of my album pages, which I have shared previous in this discussion board. Here it is again; I bought all of the stamps (U.S. Scott #65, I believe)from a very small dealer in Cottonwood, Arizona. Note that two of them (the second and third in the top row) have identical cancellations but are obviously not from the same sheet (and may not even be the same issue for all I know!). And it looks like one was cancelled at a later time than the other, because one "spoke" in the second one is shorter than in the first one, which seems to have a crack in the same spoke.
Any more information anyone can give me about these stamps or cancellations would be appreciated.
Bob
Here's a detail image of the two identical cancellations:
Login to Like
this post
The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
10 Feb 2012
07:28:17pm
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
Peter:
Your step-father appears to have been among the trail-blazers on the path you're going down - so many stamp-collecting projects, so little time. I'm on this crowded path and enjoying every fast-fleeting moment of it, labours of love.
Here's a quixotic observation: when compiling my album of USA stamps, I had no difficulty with posting early Americans. I now conclude it was that easy because I was a "beginner". If and when I get enough "disposable" time, I shall double-check to see if those stamps are correctly identified. Definitely not a priority task.
I owe you a few shekels for stamps and your comments about an university fund for your grandchild have given me a guilty conscience.
Perseverance with your endeavours,
John Derry
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
Thanks all, for your responses!
Dan, thanks for the offer-- I may take you up on that, when I get hopelessly stuck!
Bob, nice looking cancels-- I'm enjoying finding a few similar, in my stepdad's hoard.
About these early US cancels-- I've seen them referred to as "cork" cancels... so I wonder, did the local postmaster in these towns literally sit down with a piece of cork and a pen knife and create these?
Peter
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
Nope, not cork, or so I understand. Cork wouldn't hold up against the constant pounding. Instead, "cork" cancellers were apparently made of hard rubber and perhaps other materials. Anyone else have information?
Bob
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
Dear Peter,
That was exactly what they did early on-later the canceling devices "were issued to those larger post offices with sufficient proceeds in postage to receive handstamps at government expense". For those that were too small the postmaster had to supply the cancel at his own expense.Thus the manuscript cancel for so many of the early issues in lieu of the fancier cancel device.
Bob, those are beautiful strikes. Clearly the collection was of the cancels, not the more common stamps on which they are found.
Thanks for the chance to see them.
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
The American Philatelic Society has introduced a service called "Quick ID". For a fee, they will identify a scan of a stamp. It is quite useful when you are really stuck. They also offer publications on identifying the early US and the always vexing Washington's and Franklin's. In terms of disposing of the "collection" having it appraised by two or three different dealers might give you an even better idea of it's value than plowing through it on your own.
Personally, my idea of heaven is to sort through an old collection because who knows what you might find to add to your own collection.
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
We might be playing with words here, but I don't know of any stamp dealers who wouldn't charge an arm and a leg for appraising even a small stamp collection.
As any collector who has ever opened a catalogue knows, it can take hours to track down the value of even a few stamps. Most dealers can quickly look through a collection and determine it it would be worth accepting on consignment or purchasing outright, but they just don't have time to do a true appraisal without a guarantee that it will be worth their time.
I am often asked, usually by relatives of deceased collectors, how they can turn the collections into cash. My short answer: Show what seems to be a representative sample of the collection to a dealer to see if they're interested in handling its sale. I get so many of these queries that in self-defence I wrote an article about the subject, "What to do when you inherit stamps".
Bob
Login to Like
this post
08:24:47pm
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
I have nothing intelligent to add, but as a classics collector I appreciate the photos of these fine philatelic pieces.
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
Bob,
What I meant was to have the dealers evaluate the collection or accumulation with an eye toward making an offer. One does not have accept the offer.
Les
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
Hey! Pete! what was that address again?
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
I am glad to see I am not the only one who doesnt want to dive head first into this area. I would like to get my USA used stamp album sorted properly to see what I need and what not. Hopefully one of these days it will happen but for now it is not even on a burner yet.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
Les, I should have written earlier, but dealers will be giving you their buy price, which is completely different from an appraisal. That buy price will give you some sense what it's worth intact to a dealer, but that's all
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
Not to be against Dealers as people but their skills leave a lot to be desired.Heaps of them undercut the hobby.
Many dealers in my region wonder why I keep away from them.They tell me they have declining sales.It is no rocket science but these dealers asked for lower interest with their unreasonable prices.
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
What are you referring to by "unreasonable" prices? What they offer to buy, or what they are selling stamps for? What is unreasonable about it to you?
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
I agree with michael78651: In my experience, dealers nearly always charge somewhere between 20% and 80% of a stamp's catalogue value. And it's not like most retail situations, where a store receives pre-packaged merchandise and has only to unpack it, price it, and display it. Many long hours go into preparing stamps for sale; if stamp prices actually reflected the labour involved in selling them, they would be much higher than they are.
One problem dealers face is ignorant collectors: I once had an approval stamp returned after the potential buyer had requested a copy of it. The one I sent was beautiful and well worth the $10 I was charging. The potential buyer enclosed an angry note with the returned stamp: "If I had $10 to spend, I certainly wouldn't spent it on a stamp!"
There are some ignorant sellers, too. I know a vest-pocket dealer who routinely overprices his stamps and covers. And he underprices some because he doesn't bother learning about his stock. I collect postal history and stamps of the Occupied Channel Islands. The evidence seems to be that every Channel Islander collected postal history; domestic philatelic covers are very common, especially FDCs. (I exaggerate, of course: I'm sure that one or two people weren't collectors!) In any event, any dealer worth his salt knows the that most Channel Island covers are philatelic. But I have one commercial Occupation cover, a ratty #10 envelope addressed to a school, which I bought for only $3 from the aforesaid dealer. I have no doubt I could sell it for 10 times what I paid for it. The dealer doesn't seem to know the difference between philatelic covers and commercial covers, and his pricing makes him seem just plain greedy. And two other things about him really bug me: He won't bargain (his attitude seems to be "Up yours!" if you make a lower offer), and he often shows nice items ("You'll really like this!), but when you ask how much he wants for it he'll tell you indignantly that it's not for sale. Grrrr!
Bob
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
03 Mar 2012
04:11:36pm
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
I suspect we have all met some quirky buyers as well as sellers. But there is a reason. A quirky business like collecting stamps, and more so selling stamps professionally requires a quirky personality.
I suspect it comes with the territory and makes for amusement, amazement and sometimes embelishment, during those long dark evenings around the hot stove league.
Login to Like
this post
re: Classic and early US: A learning process
I appreciate the continued feedback, here.
I am very familiar with this "type" of lot/collection, because it's precisely the type of lot I look for, in my own area of interest-- Scandinavia. LOADS of loose album pages, delapidated stock books, stock sheets, glassines, little cardboard boxes, envelopes and very little order.
I believe this is also what some refer to as a "job lot."
Very few dealers would offer much, because of the amount of WORK needed to extract the value. Most likely, I'd get an offer for $800-1000, then the dealer MIGHT take three days to try to cherry pick the best for his stock, then he'd try to flip the balance in a quick sale to someone in his customer base who's a "treasure hunter." He'd make a quick $500, and pick up 50-100 better items for his stock.
Since I have time, and am not hot-to-trot to liquidate-- AND I've set myself this goal of stowing away some $$$ for my grandson's college, someday-- I can probably extract 10-15 times that, bit by bit.
In the process, I am LEARNING a lot of new stuff!
~Peter
Login to Like
this post