Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
10:27:02pm
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The traditional equipment is a black plastic tray and watermark fluid. People also use lighter fluid, but if you go that route, you have to be careful and use it in a well ventilated area.
I would not waste my money on any watermark detector. They can be expensive and while a few people praise their glory, most comments I have seen, and my own experiences have not been good.
If you have a scanner, there is a process to bring out the watermark on a stamp. I haven't tried it, so I will let someone who has explain that, if they want.
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i'll vouch that the lighter fluid works GREAT... i was just going through some of my Italian "syracuse coin" collection.. that I wasn't sure which watermark they used til i tried the lighter fluid.. and it doesn't take much to get it to come out (just a quick splash at most).
although I have some that just don't seem to have any watermark, but there may still be too much paper on the backs of those (even thin as it is) to pull the watermark out.
Although now i have a couple of them that dont' fit the measurement size for ANY of the listed ones... didn't think I'd hit that issue... (stupid things measures 20.5 mm in the frame on some of them, but there AIN'T no stamp with that measurement! It's supposed to be 19.5 to 20 (for one type) and 21 for the other.. and they don't fit either!! ARGH!)
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Hi Brady,
We have had a couple of very good discussion on watermark detecting. Here is a link to one of them. I hope it helps a little.
click here for discussion on watermarks
Regards ... TIm.
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01:11:50am
Thanks advice Tim going to have to try the scanner trick sounds interesting.
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01:14:04am
Thanks michael going to to the store next week and get me some fluid and a black plastic tray just in case the scanner trick doesn't work.
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FWIW, I've had good luck with a lighter fluid alternative of sorts. I went to Lowe's and picked up a can of "VM&P Naphtha", basically what Ronsonol lighter fluid is. The quart can cost me $7.50 and is a lot cheaper than regular lighter fluid. I did this because an on-going collection of mine is one for watermarks so I tend to use more than a normal person would. I've been doing this for over a year and not noted any damage to any WW stamps yet. But like with all things, YMMV.
John D.
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11:15:41pm
And I'll add that I have been using Rubbing Alcohol (Isopropyl) for close to fifty years as an inexpensive alternative to Watermark Fluid or Lighter Fluid and something that is probably a little bit less explosive.
But a well ventilated is still sine qua non.
The odor is less objectional also.
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I normally wouldn't use chemicals on stamps, but there was a watermark on a fairly inexpensive stamps that I just couldn't make out, so I tried using alcohol.
It worked well, the watermark showed up, but when the stamp dried, it was no longer flat.
Any advice on how to prevent the problem next time?
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Hi all,
I've been a member of another stamp discussion board where there was a descriptive procedure given to extract the watermark using the scanner. Posted below is a link
http://www.stampcommunity.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15246&SearchTerms=watermark
If I have violated any rules, please let me know; I will remove the link.
Cheers
Ram
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I've seen some people say the scanner idea for a watermark ONLY works with certain scanners/software. And some stamps WILL NOT come through on that.
I've been tempted to try it... but as I can get zippo lighter fluid for fairly cheap, i haven't had the need yet.
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I found Ram's link to be helpful and thank him for posting it.
Bob Ingraham (bobstamp) has also posted similar useful scanning-for-watermarks advice
on these discussion pages.
John Derry
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The ingredients of Rosonol have changed slightly
Prior to 2010 it consisted of about 95% light naphtha & 5% medium naphtha (different boiling pts). It was produced by Shell
Lets just say that naphtha is complex and varies in composition
In 2010 Zippo (I believe) took over the Rosonol brand & changed the formula to 70% naphtha & other distillates.
Swan has basically the same ingredients but perhaps a higher concentration of light naphtha
As an alternative you might want to try a light grade of naphtha (much less expensive)
I used Benzene 40 years ago & I don't think anything ever rivaled it. Of course now we know better. It does dissolve photogravure inks.
For dispensing and preventing evaporation I put the Rosonol in a 50ml brown glass dropper bottle.
It dispenses a drop at a time so no waste.
Using a scanner for watermarks works surprisingly well (some/most of the time).
It is a fairly long process and you need software to manipulate the image that can do what are called layers & curve adjustments preferably in CMYK (color used by print shops) but it may work in what most of us use for regular graphics, RGB. The software required can be expensive, Gimp (free) can handle CMYK through Photoshop plugins I believe.
Also a scanner & scanner software that can do negatives like an Epson Perfection V370 Photo ($100.00+). I would not rush out & get a new scanner - you may be disappointed with the results
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As I was told many years ago you can buy many different materials and gadgets to identify a watermark but the cheapest method is plain black card with a matt finish and if no watermark can be seen there's a good possibility the stamp doesn't have a watermark.
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That works with some issues from some countries. Czechoslovakia and Hungary some issues are easy to see without fluid. But certain other issues, certain stamp colors, require fluid. U.S. Stamps always require fluid IMO.
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12:04:07am
After much anxiety, I decided to "take the plunge" with lighter fluid to detect watermarks. Despite the use by many seasoned users, I was hesitant and tried it out on some known low value stamps to assure myself there would be no damage. I was absolutely amazed. I was able to work through about 30 stamps tonight using the lighter fluid and I'm in love (and possibly high from inhaling! Lol). I was quickly able to identify and catalogue all the stamps and I'm extremely grateful that I did. I have had hundreds in the past few weeks that are basic low values (under $1 - mostly $0.25). To my great surprise amidst a group of stamps, each marked on the album pages I'm taking apart by the original owner, one stamp identical to the naked eye was the same as the others which are $0.25 or $0.30 - I discovered to my great delight one with a watermark with a CV of $150. I would have totally missed it and assumed it belonged with the others. I triple checked the watermark because I was certain it must be one of the others, but it was accurate. I even had my friend check without telling her what the CV was for it.
From now on, lighter fluid for watermark detection will be my best friend.
I've been diligently working on my stamps for the past 5 months which due to my health and losing several friends my age (one of whom I've been friends with for 40 years and the other 21 years) has provided much needed distraction and relaxation. My friend and I have been pleasantly surprised by several 3 digit CVs and thankfully on very nice conditioned stamps.
You never know what is lurking amidst your $0.25 stamps. Of course I've got some fillers and floor sweepings as well but these make all of the others well worth the hard work.
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A rather more generic term for the rather generic "naphtha" is "white gas", otherwise known as camp fuel - the stuff that burns in gas lanterns and camp stoves. Comes in gallons at any store with camping stuff. (I have a gas lantern collection, so buying a gallon at a time is not intimidating.)
I have been using this for awhile, since my bottle of "Detecto-fluid" ran out. Camp fuel does evaporate somewhat faster than Detecto-fluid, so I prepare in advance and work quickly. Have seen no effects on stamps or inks, but if I'm doing more than a single stamp, I'll do my watermark detection outside to keep the household happy.
-Paul
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There is a short article in the American Philatelist this month on watermark detection. they recommend not using lighter fluid or any petroleum products. Just pour some lighter fluid in a watermark tray and let it evaporate, there will be a residue. This residue will be left on your stamps as well. Many years ago when I started collecting stamps I remember using Carbon tetra chloride. Moved onto Princz Super Safe fluid.
The APS developed a fluid just for the purpose of watermark detection, Clarity. It is more expensive than lighter fluid or the other watermark fluids. It don't make sense to me to worry about ventilation and flammable fluids just to check watermarks.
I do check for watermarks occasionally such as the Washingon/Franklins. My main use of the fluid is to detect faults and repairs on my stamps.
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Not all lighter fluid leaves a residue, even with the same brand/type. It appears to vary from batch to batch so the best solution is to simply test the lighter fluid you are using. Shake the bottle, put some in your tray and then examine the tray after it evaporates.
If there is any residue do not use that bottle, if there is no residue then you can use that bottle.
Don
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Don,
Maybe it leaves a residue maybe it don't. Why take that chance. Then there is the problem of flammability and the harmful vapors. Too many precautions and extra work just to try and save money on watermark fluid.
Vince
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Hi Vince,
For me the issue is not saving a few bucks; I think that Clarity sucks (for US or other hard to watermark stamps).
First it dries far too quickly, much more quickly than lighter fluid. This is a huge issue for me when I am trying to watch the 'flash'. Flashes can be short even with lighter fluid, but I find the flashes with Clarity to be almost impossibly fast.
My second beef with Clarity is that is simply does not show small faults well (sometimes not at all). I have found at least 20 small faults with lighter fluid that never showed up with Clarity.
Don
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10:48:18pm
Once more, I'll recommend Isopropyl Alcohol
(Medical rubbing alcohol ) leaves no discernible
residue, is purified for hospital usage
as an antiseptic and costs about $1.60 a quart
at drugstores, supermarkets and places like
General Dollar Store.
It is less noxious than lighter fluid
and I daresay less flammable.
I started using it on Wildings about sixty (60) years ago
and again, there is neither discernible residue
nor discoloration.
Why members even mention the very dangerous fluids
such as lighter fluids or camp oil which do have
observable additives they can smell is a mystery to me.
As for some of the "Watermark Detection Fluids" that
cost several dollars for a few mere ounces,
is somewhat inane when something used in hospitals
on scratches and the area being prepped for an injection,
or incision is inexpensively available.
All such products have some danger and need to be used wisely.
As for effectiveness, the watermarks, if present
virtually pop out unless concealed by a cancellation,
and as far as I can see the precious gum is not disturbed.
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10:27:02pm
Hello I have a newbie question about watermarks.What is the easiest way to look for watermarks?On some of my stamps it's somewhat easy to tell which is which.On others it's not I can barely tell if it has one.I have a few stamps that should have them but don't so I can't be sure which printing it's suppose to be,and there would only be two printings of it one with one watermark,and the other with a different watermark.Is there a trick to tell or do I need to spend some money on some machine that can detect the watermarks.Any help would great thank you.
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re: Help with watermark identifying
The traditional equipment is a black plastic tray and watermark fluid. People also use lighter fluid, but if you go that route, you have to be careful and use it in a well ventilated area.
I would not waste my money on any watermark detector. They can be expensive and while a few people praise their glory, most comments I have seen, and my own experiences have not been good.
If you have a scanner, there is a process to bring out the watermark on a stamp. I haven't tried it, so I will let someone who has explain that, if they want.
Login to Like
this post
re: Help with watermark identifying
i'll vouch that the lighter fluid works GREAT... i was just going through some of my Italian "syracuse coin" collection.. that I wasn't sure which watermark they used til i tried the lighter fluid.. and it doesn't take much to get it to come out (just a quick splash at most).
although I have some that just don't seem to have any watermark, but there may still be too much paper on the backs of those (even thin as it is) to pull the watermark out.
Although now i have a couple of them that dont' fit the measurement size for ANY of the listed ones... didn't think I'd hit that issue... (stupid things measures 20.5 mm in the frame on some of them, but there AIN'T no stamp with that measurement! It's supposed to be 19.5 to 20 (for one type) and 21 for the other.. and they don't fit either!! ARGH!)
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re: Help with watermark identifying
Hi Brady,
We have had a couple of very good discussion on watermark detecting. Here is a link to one of them. I hope it helps a little.
click here for discussion on watermarks
Regards ... TIm.
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this post
01:11:50am
re: Help with watermark identifying
Thanks advice Tim going to have to try the scanner trick sounds interesting.
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01:14:04am
re: Help with watermark identifying
Thanks michael going to to the store next week and get me some fluid and a black plastic tray just in case the scanner trick doesn't work.
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this post
re: Help with watermark identifying
FWIW, I've had good luck with a lighter fluid alternative of sorts. I went to Lowe's and picked up a can of "VM&P Naphtha", basically what Ronsonol lighter fluid is. The quart can cost me $7.50 and is a lot cheaper than regular lighter fluid. I did this because an on-going collection of mine is one for watermarks so I tend to use more than a normal person would. I've been doing this for over a year and not noted any damage to any WW stamps yet. But like with all things, YMMV.
John D.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
22 Apr 2012
11:15:41pm
re: Help with watermark identifying
And I'll add that I have been using Rubbing Alcohol (Isopropyl) for close to fifty years as an inexpensive alternative to Watermark Fluid or Lighter Fluid and something that is probably a little bit less explosive.
But a well ventilated is still sine qua non.
The odor is less objectional also.
Login to Like
this post
re: Help with watermark identifying
I normally wouldn't use chemicals on stamps, but there was a watermark on a fairly inexpensive stamps that I just couldn't make out, so I tried using alcohol.
It worked well, the watermark showed up, but when the stamp dried, it was no longer flat.
Any advice on how to prevent the problem next time?
Login to Like
this post
03:35:35pm
re: Help with watermark identifying
Hi all,
I've been a member of another stamp discussion board where there was a descriptive procedure given to extract the watermark using the scanner. Posted below is a link
http://www.stampcommunity.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15246&SearchTerms=watermark
If I have violated any rules, please let me know; I will remove the link.
Cheers
Ram
Login to Like
this post
re: Help with watermark identifying
I've seen some people say the scanner idea for a watermark ONLY works with certain scanners/software. And some stamps WILL NOT come through on that.
I've been tempted to try it... but as I can get zippo lighter fluid for fairly cheap, i haven't had the need yet.
Login to Like
this post
The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
23 May 2012
08:35:56pm
re: Help with watermark identifying
I found Ram's link to be helpful and thank him for posting it.
Bob Ingraham (bobstamp) has also posted similar useful scanning-for-watermarks advice
on these discussion pages.
John Derry
Login to Like
this post
06:19:02pm
re: Help with watermark identifying
The ingredients of Rosonol have changed slightly
Prior to 2010 it consisted of about 95% light naphtha & 5% medium naphtha (different boiling pts). It was produced by Shell
Lets just say that naphtha is complex and varies in composition
In 2010 Zippo (I believe) took over the Rosonol brand & changed the formula to 70% naphtha & other distillates.
Swan has basically the same ingredients but perhaps a higher concentration of light naphtha
As an alternative you might want to try a light grade of naphtha (much less expensive)
I used Benzene 40 years ago & I don't think anything ever rivaled it. Of course now we know better. It does dissolve photogravure inks.
For dispensing and preventing evaporation I put the Rosonol in a 50ml brown glass dropper bottle.
It dispenses a drop at a time so no waste.
Using a scanner for watermarks works surprisingly well (some/most of the time).
It is a fairly long process and you need software to manipulate the image that can do what are called layers & curve adjustments preferably in CMYK (color used by print shops) but it may work in what most of us use for regular graphics, RGB. The software required can be expensive, Gimp (free) can handle CMYK through Photoshop plugins I believe.
Also a scanner & scanner software that can do negatives like an Epson Perfection V370 Photo ($100.00+). I would not rush out & get a new scanner - you may be disappointed with the results
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05:04:06am
re: Help with watermark identifying
As I was told many years ago you can buy many different materials and gadgets to identify a watermark but the cheapest method is plain black card with a matt finish and if no watermark can be seen there's a good possibility the stamp doesn't have a watermark.
Login to Like
this post
re: Help with watermark identifying
That works with some issues from some countries. Czechoslovakia and Hungary some issues are easy to see without fluid. But certain other issues, certain stamp colors, require fluid. U.S. Stamps always require fluid IMO.
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11 Jun 2018
12:04:07am
re: Help with watermark identifying
After much anxiety, I decided to "take the plunge" with lighter fluid to detect watermarks. Despite the use by many seasoned users, I was hesitant and tried it out on some known low value stamps to assure myself there would be no damage. I was absolutely amazed. I was able to work through about 30 stamps tonight using the lighter fluid and I'm in love (and possibly high from inhaling! Lol). I was quickly able to identify and catalogue all the stamps and I'm extremely grateful that I did. I have had hundreds in the past few weeks that are basic low values (under $1 - mostly $0.25). To my great surprise amidst a group of stamps, each marked on the album pages I'm taking apart by the original owner, one stamp identical to the naked eye was the same as the others which are $0.25 or $0.30 - I discovered to my great delight one with a watermark with a CV of $150. I would have totally missed it and assumed it belonged with the others. I triple checked the watermark because I was certain it must be one of the others, but it was accurate. I even had my friend check without telling her what the CV was for it.
From now on, lighter fluid for watermark detection will be my best friend.
I've been diligently working on my stamps for the past 5 months which due to my health and losing several friends my age (one of whom I've been friends with for 40 years and the other 21 years) has provided much needed distraction and relaxation. My friend and I have been pleasantly surprised by several 3 digit CVs and thankfully on very nice conditioned stamps.
You never know what is lurking amidst your $0.25 stamps. Of course I've got some fillers and floor sweepings as well but these make all of the others well worth the hard work.
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08:47:51am
re: Help with watermark identifying
A rather more generic term for the rather generic "naphtha" is "white gas", otherwise known as camp fuel - the stuff that burns in gas lanterns and camp stoves. Comes in gallons at any store with camping stuff. (I have a gas lantern collection, so buying a gallon at a time is not intimidating.)
I have been using this for awhile, since my bottle of "Detecto-fluid" ran out. Camp fuel does evaporate somewhat faster than Detecto-fluid, so I prepare in advance and work quickly. Have seen no effects on stamps or inks, but if I'm doing more than a single stamp, I'll do my watermark detection outside to keep the household happy.
-Paul
Login to Like
this post
re: Help with watermark identifying
There is a short article in the American Philatelist this month on watermark detection. they recommend not using lighter fluid or any petroleum products. Just pour some lighter fluid in a watermark tray and let it evaporate, there will be a residue. This residue will be left on your stamps as well. Many years ago when I started collecting stamps I remember using Carbon tetra chloride. Moved onto Princz Super Safe fluid.
The APS developed a fluid just for the purpose of watermark detection, Clarity. It is more expensive than lighter fluid or the other watermark fluids. It don't make sense to me to worry about ventilation and flammable fluids just to check watermarks.
I do check for watermarks occasionally such as the Washingon/Franklins. My main use of the fluid is to detect faults and repairs on my stamps.
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: Help with watermark identifying
Not all lighter fluid leaves a residue, even with the same brand/type. It appears to vary from batch to batch so the best solution is to simply test the lighter fluid you are using. Shake the bottle, put some in your tray and then examine the tray after it evaporates.
If there is any residue do not use that bottle, if there is no residue then you can use that bottle.
Don
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this post
re: Help with watermark identifying
Don,
Maybe it leaves a residue maybe it don't. Why take that chance. Then there is the problem of flammability and the harmful vapors. Too many precautions and extra work just to try and save money on watermark fluid.
Vince
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this post
re: Help with watermark identifying
Hi Vince,
For me the issue is not saving a few bucks; I think that Clarity sucks (for US or other hard to watermark stamps).
First it dries far too quickly, much more quickly than lighter fluid. This is a huge issue for me when I am trying to watch the 'flash'. Flashes can be short even with lighter fluid, but I find the flashes with Clarity to be almost impossibly fast.
My second beef with Clarity is that is simply does not show small faults well (sometimes not at all). I have found at least 20 small faults with lighter fluid that never showed up with Clarity.
Don
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this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
12 Jun 2018
10:48:18pm
re: Help with watermark identifying
Once more, I'll recommend Isopropyl Alcohol
(Medical rubbing alcohol ) leaves no discernible
residue, is purified for hospital usage
as an antiseptic and costs about $1.60 a quart
at drugstores, supermarkets and places like
General Dollar Store.
It is less noxious than lighter fluid
and I daresay less flammable.
I started using it on Wildings about sixty (60) years ago
and again, there is neither discernible residue
nor discoloration.
Why members even mention the very dangerous fluids
such as lighter fluids or camp oil which do have
observable additives they can smell is a mystery to me.
As for some of the "Watermark Detection Fluids" that
cost several dollars for a few mere ounces,
is somewhat inane when something used in hospitals
on scratches and the area being prepped for an injection,
or incision is inexpensively available.
All such products have some danger and need to be used wisely.
As for effectiveness, the watermarks, if present
virtually pop out unless concealed by a cancellation,
and as far as I can see the precious gum is not disturbed.
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