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Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
06:58:02pm
I recently came across this series of Serbian Issues from 1911-14. Needless to say there is no information in Scott, however, I have a feeling there is information of some sort in Michel. So, if anyone has info from Michel or anywhere else (perhaps hidden deep within your cranial encyclopedia) - please, feel free to share. Enjoy!
Kelly
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07:17:49pm
Good evening Kelly,
My 2006 Scott Classic lists this as King Peter I Karageorgevich. The stamps you have pictured are Scott Type A14 and were issued between 1911-1914 and were printed on thick wove paper. 22 Stamps were issued in the set and the note at the bottom of the Catalogue listing states that counterfeits exist. There is no mention of imperf varieties of the stamp.
There is my cranial knowledge or lack there of.
Alyn
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07:30:46pm
The information that I have from it is as follows:
The Gutter pair may be listed in the Michel speecialised as a ZS Pair.
The imperf copies from what I understand are not counterfeits - they do exist as imperforate and are apparently listed in Michel catalogue.
Kelly
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08:05:14pm
I often wonder if the Scott publishers want us to buy other Catalogues to get complete information on a set of stamps.
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The stamps do exist both perforate and imperforate. However, Klaseboer states that the imperforate stamps are "unfinished stamps". That is likely the reason why Scott doesn't assign catalog numbers to them.
Assuming you have checked the perfs, your perforated stamps appear genuine. According to Varro, genuine stamps are perf 12x11.5.
However, I concur with Michael#####, and suspect all the imperforate stamps you showed are counterfeit. I think the genuine stamps are typographed. I can't ID which counterfeits you might have, only that they are not the Hadi counterfeits.
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Okay, Scott lists the entire group of these stamps in one set, while Michel separates them out by year of issue. As a result, I missed the comment in Michel.
Michel states that the imperforate stamps are unfinished remainders.
The printing of those remainders is very roughly done, and they have some characteristics of the counterfeits made in Monaco. Other counterfeits were made in Geneva for the packet trade. All the genuine ones I have seen have pretty clear impressions. The Hadi counterfeits have clear impressions as well. I have a couple of them.
I deleted my original post referred to by Kim to avoid confusion.
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Kim, you posted while I was checking out the stamps!
The Serrane Guide says that the perfs of the genuine and Geneva counterfeits are the same. There is a very slight different in design size where the counterfeits ever so slightly larger. Paper is also 70 microns thick rather than 60 microns (originals). There also is mention of faint and irregular decorative lines.
The Monaco (Hadi) counterfeits have perforation 11 1/2.
Michel also states that the original (I believe plates) fell into the hands of private citizens who went ahead and used them to print counterfeits. Evidently these stamps were counterfeited several times. I only have information on the Geneva and, like you, the Monaco (Hadi) counterfeits.
One way to tell if it is an original, issued stamp is by measuring the line under the "APA" in the box in the upper right corner. It should be 1.5 mm long.
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09:04:51pm
Yes, the other piece of information I received with this set was that it is from an unfinished remainder. The person from whom I received these was positive that they are definitely genuine. I shall measure the part as you suggested Michael and that will help me know for sure.
Does Michel list values for the ZS Pair?
Kelly
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Kelly, I saw no listings for gutter pairs. My Michel Europe is not current. If they added that in a newer edition, I would not know.
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09:35:50pm
Thanks for checking Michael. I have the same problem with some of my West Berlin Gutter Pairs and Se-Tenant Pairs and Strips, in my one volume Michel they are not all listed.
It's always great to get some of these things but frustrating when you can't get full answers. I've had a number of issues that I've had problems with simply because they are not "common enough" for Scott to list, etc.
Is there a specialised Michel for Serbia area that would give more information than just the basics from the European catalogue?
Kelly
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I see that Yvert & Tellier has a catalog for Eastern Europe. It hasn't been updated since 2003.
Michel catalogs for Europe were expanded to 6 volumes.
Gibbons has a Balkans catalog.
I don't know how comprehensive these catalog are.
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11:07:25pm
Do you think I would get any assistance if I wrote to them (the catalogue editors?) I obviously don't want to purchase a catalogue for one set of stamps especially since I don't collect that country. Just a thought.
Kelly
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12:27:38am
Thanks Liz, I'll give it a whirl. They can only say yes or no, right?
K.
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10:29:13am
One of the things that has always interested me about stamp collecting is that if we have just a dollop of curiosity about the stamps we come across there are so many interesting bits of History, Geography and others societies' cultures that are not even mentioned in our usual schooling.
I knew very little about Serbian history other than that it was in the Balkans, had been involved deeply in the assassination that precipitated The Great War, it became a part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes and later that was called Yugoslavia or Jugoslavia.
During WW II it was an area of intense struggle between several groups who opposed the Nazis and afterward Marshall Tito managed to maintain a modicum of independence despite being in the Soviet sphere.
Well, there also was the Olympics in Serajevo and the recent war with some elements of unspeakable cruelty. But specific info about King Peter, either "I" or "II" and their lives was really absent.
But stamps led to some research and Peter I was a fairly intresting guy.
Below is a summary I pulled from the on-line Britannica.
Peter I, (born July 11 [June 29, Old Style], 1844, Belgrade, Serbia—died Aug. 16, 1921, TopÄider, near Belgrade), king of Serbia from 1903, the first strictly constitutional monarch of his country. In 1918 he became the first king of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (later called Yugoslavia).
Born the third son of the reigning prince Alexander Karadjordjević (1842–58), Peter became heir to the throne on the death of his brother Svetozar (1847). After his father was forced to abdicate (1858), Peter lived in exile for the next 45 years. Educated in France, mainly at military schools such as the prestigious Saint-Cyr, he served as a lieutenant in the French Army during the Franco-German War and was decorated with the Cross of the Legion of Honour for heroism. When the Serbs of Herzegovina revolted against the Turks in 1875, Peter organized a party of volunteers to assist them. Afterward he became an honorary senator in Montenegro (1883) and improved his dynastic ties by marrying Zorka, the first child of Prince Nicholas of Montenegro (1883).
In 1903 the Serbian king Alexander Obrenović (1889–1903) was assassinated, ending the Obrenović dynasty, and Peter was elected king of Serbia. His reputation as a liberal (he translated John Stuart Mill’s essay On Liberty into Serbian in 1868) and his strong advocacy of constitutional government helped improve the political situation at home and win recognition abroad. Incapacitated by age and poor health, Peter named his heir, Prince Alexander (Alexander I), regent on June 24, 1914. During World War I, after the defeat of Serbia by the Central Powers (Germany and Austria) in 1915, he took part in the retreat to the Adriatic, carried in a litter. At the end of World War I he returned to Belgrade, where he was proclaimed king of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (Dec. 1, 1918).
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/453707/Peter-I
And now if you are ever on the street and interviewed by Jay Leno about Serbian History you will be able to stun the audience.
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Always a revelation to me on how little I know about postage stamps when the "craniums" weigh in. Haven't looked at my Serbia stamps for several years, but am going to get that stamp album right now. Thanks everyone.
John Derry
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08:01:11pm
Just an update:
I used all your tips on identifying this set (all the measurements line up, etc) and also showed them to a dealer friend of mine (who also does appraisals for insurance companies). He said they are definitely genuine and directed me to a friend of his in Ottawa (Canada) who does appraisals on rare stamps. So, I'm glad these "fell into my hands".
Kelly
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
24 Jan 2013
06:58:02pm
Ok guys - here's a chance to expand our craniums and open the encyclopedias of knowledge that exist within so many of your brilliant minds
I recently came across this series of Serbian Issues from 1911-14. Needless to say there is no information in Scott, however, I have a feeling there is information of some sort in Michel. So, if anyone has info from Michel or anywhere else (perhaps hidden deep within your cranial encyclopedia) - please, feel free to share. Enjoy!
Kelly
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webmaster for the ISWSC http://iswsc.org and ATA http://www.americantopicalassn.org
24 Jan 2013
07:17:49pm
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
Good evening Kelly,
My 2006 Scott Classic lists this as King Peter I Karageorgevich. The stamps you have pictured are Scott Type A14 and were issued between 1911-1914 and were printed on thick wove paper. 22 Stamps were issued in the set and the note at the bottom of the Catalogue listing states that counterfeits exist. There is no mention of imperf varieties of the stamp.
There is my cranial knowledge or lack there of.
Alyn
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this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
24 Jan 2013
07:30:46pm
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
The information that I have from it is as follows:
The Gutter pair may be listed in the Michel speecialised as a ZS Pair.
The imperf copies from what I understand are not counterfeits - they do exist as imperforate and are apparently listed in Michel catalogue.
Kelly
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this post
webmaster for the ISWSC http://iswsc.org and ATA http://www.americantopicalassn.org
24 Jan 2013
08:05:14pm
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
I often wonder if the Scott publishers want us to buy other Catalogues to get complete information on a set of stamps.
1 Member
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re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
The stamps do exist both perforate and imperforate. However, Klaseboer states that the imperforate stamps are "unfinished stamps". That is likely the reason why Scott doesn't assign catalog numbers to them.
Assuming you have checked the perfs, your perforated stamps appear genuine. According to Varro, genuine stamps are perf 12x11.5.
However, I concur with Michael#####, and suspect all the imperforate stamps you showed are counterfeit. I think the genuine stamps are typographed. I can't ID which counterfeits you might have, only that they are not the Hadi counterfeits.
Login to Like
this post
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
Okay, Scott lists the entire group of these stamps in one set, while Michel separates them out by year of issue. As a result, I missed the comment in Michel.
Michel states that the imperforate stamps are unfinished remainders.
The printing of those remainders is very roughly done, and they have some characteristics of the counterfeits made in Monaco. Other counterfeits were made in Geneva for the packet trade. All the genuine ones I have seen have pretty clear impressions. The Hadi counterfeits have clear impressions as well. I have a couple of them.
I deleted my original post referred to by Kim to avoid confusion.
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this post
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
Kim, you posted while I was checking out the stamps!
The Serrane Guide says that the perfs of the genuine and Geneva counterfeits are the same. There is a very slight different in design size where the counterfeits ever so slightly larger. Paper is also 70 microns thick rather than 60 microns (originals). There also is mention of faint and irregular decorative lines.
The Monaco (Hadi) counterfeits have perforation 11 1/2.
Michel also states that the original (I believe plates) fell into the hands of private citizens who went ahead and used them to print counterfeits. Evidently these stamps were counterfeited several times. I only have information on the Geneva and, like you, the Monaco (Hadi) counterfeits.
One way to tell if it is an original, issued stamp is by measuring the line under the "APA" in the box in the upper right corner. It should be 1.5 mm long.
Login to Like
this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
24 Jan 2013
09:04:51pm
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
Yes, the other piece of information I received with this set was that it is from an unfinished remainder. The person from whom I received these was positive that they are definitely genuine. I shall measure the part as you suggested Michael and that will help me know for sure.
Does Michel list values for the ZS Pair?
Kelly
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this post
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
Kelly, I saw no listings for gutter pairs. My Michel Europe is not current. If they added that in a newer edition, I would not know.
Login to Like
this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
24 Jan 2013
09:35:50pm
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
Thanks for checking Michael. I have the same problem with some of my West Berlin Gutter Pairs and Se-Tenant Pairs and Strips, in my one volume Michel they are not all listed.
It's always great to get some of these things but frustrating when you can't get full answers. I've had a number of issues that I've had problems with simply because they are not "common enough" for Scott to list, etc.
Is there a specialised Michel for Serbia area that would give more information than just the basics from the European catalogue?
Kelly
Login to Like
this post
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
I see that Yvert & Tellier has a catalog for Eastern Europe. It hasn't been updated since 2003.
Michel catalogs for Europe were expanded to 6 volumes.
Gibbons has a Balkans catalog.
I don't know how comprehensive these catalog are.
Login to Like
this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
24 Jan 2013
11:07:25pm
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
Do you think I would get any assistance if I wrote to them (the catalogue editors?) I obviously don't want to purchase a catalogue for one set of stamps especially since I don't collect that country. Just a thought.
Kelly
Login to Like
this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
25 Jan 2013
12:27:38am
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
Thanks Liz, I'll give it a whirl. They can only say yes or no, right?
K.
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this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
25 Jan 2013
10:29:13am
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
One of the things that has always interested me about stamp collecting is that if we have just a dollop of curiosity about the stamps we come across there are so many interesting bits of History, Geography and others societies' cultures that are not even mentioned in our usual schooling.
I knew very little about Serbian history other than that it was in the Balkans, had been involved deeply in the assassination that precipitated The Great War, it became a part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes and later that was called Yugoslavia or Jugoslavia.
During WW II it was an area of intense struggle between several groups who opposed the Nazis and afterward Marshall Tito managed to maintain a modicum of independence despite being in the Soviet sphere.
Well, there also was the Olympics in Serajevo and the recent war with some elements of unspeakable cruelty. But specific info about King Peter, either "I" or "II" and their lives was really absent.
But stamps led to some research and Peter I was a fairly intresting guy.
Below is a summary I pulled from the on-line Britannica.
Peter I, (born July 11 [June 29, Old Style], 1844, Belgrade, Serbia—died Aug. 16, 1921, TopÄider, near Belgrade), king of Serbia from 1903, the first strictly constitutional monarch of his country. In 1918 he became the first king of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (later called Yugoslavia).
Born the third son of the reigning prince Alexander Karadjordjević (1842–58), Peter became heir to the throne on the death of his brother Svetozar (1847). After his father was forced to abdicate (1858), Peter lived in exile for the next 45 years. Educated in France, mainly at military schools such as the prestigious Saint-Cyr, he served as a lieutenant in the French Army during the Franco-German War and was decorated with the Cross of the Legion of Honour for heroism. When the Serbs of Herzegovina revolted against the Turks in 1875, Peter organized a party of volunteers to assist them. Afterward he became an honorary senator in Montenegro (1883) and improved his dynastic ties by marrying Zorka, the first child of Prince Nicholas of Montenegro (1883).
In 1903 the Serbian king Alexander Obrenović (1889–1903) was assassinated, ending the Obrenović dynasty, and Peter was elected king of Serbia. His reputation as a liberal (he translated John Stuart Mill’s essay On Liberty into Serbian in 1868) and his strong advocacy of constitutional government helped improve the political situation at home and win recognition abroad. Incapacitated by age and poor health, Peter named his heir, Prince Alexander (Alexander I), regent on June 24, 1914. During World War I, after the defeat of Serbia by the Central Powers (Germany and Austria) in 1915, he took part in the retreat to the Adriatic, carried in a litter. At the end of World War I he returned to Belgrade, where he was proclaimed king of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (Dec. 1, 1918).
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/453707/Peter-I
And now if you are ever on the street and interviewed by Jay Leno about Serbian History you will be able to stun the audience.
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
25 Jan 2013
06:25:54pm
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
Always a revelation to me on how little I know about postage stamps when the "craniums" weigh in. Haven't looked at my Serbia stamps for several years, but am going to get that stamp album right now. Thanks everyone.
John Derry
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
01 Feb 2013
08:01:11pm
re: Serbia Issues 1911-14 - Need More Information
Just an update:
I used all your tips on identifying this set (all the measurements line up, etc) and also showed them to a dealer friend of mine (who also does appraisals for insurance companies). He said they are definitely genuine and directed me to a friend of his in Ottawa (Canada) who does appraisals on rare stamps. So, I'm glad these "fell into my hands".
Kelly
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this post