Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Pictures?
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Hi I posted that just before leaving for a meeting, I will scan it and add it on here tomorrow, thanks
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I have tried to upload a pic but for some reason it didn't work, I can send you an email with a pic?
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I think it would be more rewarding to get the whole gang's take on it rather than just mine. I've gotten into death struggles with my own computer, and have been saved by our resident Wizard Tim,sometimes by our Secretary Perry. Perhaps a request to them (or other apprentice wizards) might be the better path to follow?
Dan
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I will keep trying to get a pic in here, thanks
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Finally figured it out, any ideas? Thanks
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Check out #394. What do you think?
Dan C.
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Hi thanks for taking a look. I am not sure myself, it's hard to figure. #394 is a 8.5 perf vert coil stamp, this is definately an imperf stamp and I don't think it's a type 1, as a #394 is. the rope lines are not broken and they are strong. To me it looks like the "Kansas City Rouletting" of Imperf stamps of scott #408 and 409, but this is a 3 cent. Am I wrong in thinking it's not a type 1? If it's a type 1 and it's rouletted, then maybe its a #345 that was left over and rouletted with the #408 and 409's but not recorded??
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Take another look at the first of the two stamps-isn't that rope line broken?
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Very interesting subject. I had never heard of the KC roulette, so had to check out Google and see what it was all about. I found some information at the following site:
http://glossary.usstamps.org/glossary/glbrowse.php?alpha=kp
Kansas City Roulettes - improvised perforations applied by roulette to imperforate 1¢ and 2 postage stamps (Scott 408 and 409) by the postmaster of Kansas City in 1914 and 1915.
That would have a tendency to kill the idea of a three cent stamp with the KC perf, but then again, who knows, anything is possible in the philatelic arena. As far as the type, I don't even like to fool with them, just too many variables for me.
Thanks for sharing that with us.
Mike
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I agree on the 3 cent KC roulette stamps, none were ever recorded. The rouletting looks more like the KC roulette type than the Wilson type from Pittsburg which was done with something like a sewing machine. I have seen some 1 and 2 cent Wilson roulette stamps but not the 3 cent although I know they did the 3 cent ( Wilson). Anyone know where I can get more into on the Wilson roulete's? Thanks
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This was the only Kansas City Routted 3c US stamp I could find on the Internet.....Judge for yourself. What you have is a real keeper!
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10:31:59pm
Sponthetrona - are you saying these are the same as Dave's pictures? His look like much smaller roulettes. Do you think they are KC roulettes?
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http://www.theswedishtiger.com/x1913a.htm
Here is the page for Kansas City roulleted stamps and no they are not even close to Dave's stamps.....I do not believe they are KC either!
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Dave,
I searched the Philatelic Foundation's certificate database using the search term "roulette" -- there were 139 returns but none regarding a 3c Washington like yours.
Below are three examples of rouletting that I downloaded from the PF site so all could see expertized examples of these perforation types.
I think the only way that you'll get close to identifying what you have is to send it off for expertization but don't be surprised if it comes back "roulette of unknown origin."
If you dodecide to get an expert opinion, please let us know the outcome.
Steve
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Hi all, this is very interesting and hopefully we can figure it out. Dani, thanks for your help too. You pointed out that the stamps looked as if they did have broken rope lines. I have looked at the stamps with intense eye pieces and the line is intact for the most part. In the scott specialized cat. it has a good pic of what a 3 cent type 1 looks like. Almost no rope line, missing the 5th from the left line in the rope and the top of toga button is missing. After close inspection, there is a rope line be it light, there is a 5th line in the rope and the toga button is complete. I would say the lip lines do fit with a type 1, being thin. All the signs point to a type 2 except the lips. It could be a very strong type 1??
What also puzzles me is that the perferations look exactly like the KC perfs and not the small pin hole type of the Wilson perfs.
I should also say this is part of an old time collection I bought and all of the stamps were bought and put away in the 50s and 60s for a reference on the time frame. There are alot of interesting things in this collection, I thought I'd start with this one.
Love all the comments and help, keep the ideas coming, thanks! I will take a look at the 3 cent KC pic so they did have 3 cent KC stamps??
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Hi Steve, thanks wow those are great. I guess that's what I'll have to do, send them in. Did they have anything on 3 cent Wilson perfs? In my searches I thought I saw a 3 cent Wilson perf but I can't remember where I saw it.
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Dave,
The Philatelic Foundation's online database is a great resource -- if you haven't used it before it can be accessed at http://pfsearch.org/pfsearch/
To answer your question, there were no certificates issued for rouletted 3c stamps of the A140 design. That doesn't mean that none exist but only that the Philatelic Foundation has never received any for expertization.
Steve
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Thanks Steve, I went to that data base and went through all the rouletted stamps and you are right no 3 centers. I did see a type there of the KC roulette but of unknown orig. Such as cert # 417215 and #415102. That seems to confuse the matter even more haha. So they are a KC roulette but they don't know who did it? I guess all I can do is send it in. Which is the best place to send it? 1 and 2 cent blocks of KC roulettes are worth a couple hundred or so from what I have seen.
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What you are seeing in the inital paragraph is how the applicant described the item in his or her initial submission. What you need to focus on is what follows the words "and we are of the opinion that."
The items you cited were submitted as being KC roulettes but were determined by the PF expertizing committee to have been of unknown origin (i.e., they were not KC roulettes).
It makes more sense if you can see it in the proper context. Below is a certificate on a stamp on cover that the applicant had described as a Scott 64a (pigeon blood pink) but that the expertizing committee concluded was a Scott 64 (pink).
Steve
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Please,please someone come up with a definitive answer. These stamps are driving me nuts, I've tried every combination of words I can think of on the web to find an A-140 3c stamp that even remotely resembles Dave's stamps.
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Ah ok thanks Tom, this is driving me crazy too, lol Back to work!
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So are we all out of ideas? I just need to have it authenticated? Who is the best for doing this?
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Bill Weiss is fast and reasonable but I don't know if he'd be the best for this particular issue.
Sending it to the Philatelic Foundation or APEX are also options.
Somithing to consider is starting with the more reasonably priced stamp idenification services provided by Bill or APEX and make a decision subsequently as to whether or not you should pursue a certificate.
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Thanks Tom, stamps seem alot more money to cert. compared to coins.
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I certainly agree with Tom, as far as Weiss is concerned. He does offer a turn-around time of 7 days, whereas the others like to take a couple of months to do the same thing, even though they do pass it around to more than one expert. Bill has been an APS expert for many years, so would think he knows US stamps anyway. Bill also offers a couple of different ways to have it expertised, a quickie, or with a scan and all that goes with it.
Mike
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Does Bill Weiss have a website or is it APEX?
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His site is at http://www.stampexpertizing.com/
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Dave,
Thank you for posting these stamps. It is one of our more interesting current discussions.
I have been holding back here because I do not collect US stamps. The reason I have no interest in US is that you have the impenetrable classics, with their various printings and grills, which are no fun, followed by the Washington Franklins, which are less fun, followed by seventy years of ubiquitous penny stamps that hold no interest, followed by unsoakable self-adhesives that cannot even be collected. Well, this is just one man’s opinion. In any event, I am claiming zero expertise.
Let me point out a few things that do not require specialized knowledge:
1. A stamp is not, what it cannot be. If the KC rouletting was done in 1914, and the stamp at issue appeared in 1916, you have your answer.
2. Since no source identifies this particular stamp as existing with an “official†postmaster applied rouletting, it must be a privately produced rouletted stamp. You can have this expertized, but “unknown origin†will be your answer. This statement assumes that you have scouted the literature for all postmaster-rouletting of Washington-Franklin stamps, which you did.
3. The white “margins†at the bottom and at the right of the pair indicate that the rouletting has not actually been used to separate this pair of stamps from the sheet. The stamps have been cut. Specifically, the existence of attached portions of the adjoining stamps at the right and bottom tell the story of a pair of imperforated stamps to which manual rouletting (tracing wheel or similar instrument?) has been applied later.
Accordingly, it is my opinion that the rouletting is a fabrication. At best, a roulette of unknown origin, which is polite for fabricated. If I were to own it, I would probably put in the corner of an album, put a little note “probably fake,†and wait for other information to become available. In any event, I would strive to ID the stamp first, before sending it for expertizing. One idea could be the APS quick ID service to first find out what it is, before sending it for expertizing. Using expertizers for stamp identification is usually a poor use of funds.
Again, it is all just opinion, the more folks you ask, the more conflicting advice you get.
Thanks again for showing these stamps.
Arno
How to use a tracing wheel
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Thank you Arno!
Yes trying to just ID the Scott number has been a little tough too. Remember this pair was purchased in the 1950s by the grandfather of the person I bought it from. He had it labeled a #483 or he bought it as a #483. I thought it might be a #484 as I thought the toga line and button were stronger than a type 1. My scan may show them weaker than they are under an eye piece. Does anyone have an opinion on a #483 or #484? I guess as a private unknown roulette doesn't give it any premium value? Thanks for more input. I have other puzzeling pairs if you're interested in seeing? Thanks Dave
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Dave,
Is it asfe to assume that you've checked for a watermark and that there is none?
The identifier at http://www.1847usa.com/washfrank/3cT1_2/3cT01_02main.htm may be of help to you in identifying the stamp (I'd call it Type II).
Steve
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Hi Dave,
Get free expertisation from Bill Weiss by posting the images/links at Virtual Stamps Club and asking the same question. He does it regularly there for items which are confusing and if he thinks that there are possibilities he may ask youto send this for a certificate.
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Thank you all
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Davefor there is more information about Wilson perfs on this thread http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=5408#50399 and here http://www.americanstamphistory.com/downloads/05-Stamp%20Exh-Perfor.pdf
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(Modified by Moderator on 2013-12-31 06:55:23)
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Here is a picture of a 3c Washington/Franklin with Wilson perfs apparently http://www.efocc.org/Resources/Hotchner_EFOs/AA_Type069.php
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05:07:40pm
Hi I have what I'd say is a type 2( strong robe lines) 3 cent imperferated pair that has what I'd say is the Kansas City rouletting. Has anyone ever seen a 3 cent like this? I'd say it's a Scott 484 as it's a type 2 and not a #345 as that's a type 1. It's very puzzeling because the Kansas City roulettes were done in 1914 and the #484 is from about 1916. I hope someone has something to add. Thanks
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Pictures?
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07:45:08pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Hi I posted that just before leaving for a meeting, I will scan it and add it on here tomorrow, thanks
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12:46:00pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
I have tried to upload a pic but for some reason it didn't work, I can send you an email with a pic?
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
I think it would be more rewarding to get the whole gang's take on it rather than just mine. I've gotten into death struggles with my own computer, and have been saved by our resident Wizard Tim,sometimes by our Secretary Perry. Perhaps a request to them (or other apprentice wizards) might be the better path to follow?
Dan
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01:05:14pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
I will keep trying to get a pic in here, thanks
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01:13:07pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Finally figured it out, any ideas? Thanks
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Check out #394. What do you think?
Dan C.
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02:28:46pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Hi thanks for taking a look. I am not sure myself, it's hard to figure. #394 is a 8.5 perf vert coil stamp, this is definately an imperf stamp and I don't think it's a type 1, as a #394 is. the rope lines are not broken and they are strong. To me it looks like the "Kansas City Rouletting" of Imperf stamps of scott #408 and 409, but this is a 3 cent. Am I wrong in thinking it's not a type 1? If it's a type 1 and it's rouletted, then maybe its a #345 that was left over and rouletted with the #408 and 409's but not recorded??
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Take another look at the first of the two stamps-isn't that rope line broken?
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Very interesting subject. I had never heard of the KC roulette, so had to check out Google and see what it was all about. I found some information at the following site:
http://glossary.usstamps.org/glossary/glbrowse.php?alpha=kp
Kansas City Roulettes - improvised perforations applied by roulette to imperforate 1¢ and 2 postage stamps (Scott 408 and 409) by the postmaster of Kansas City in 1914 and 1915.
That would have a tendency to kill the idea of a three cent stamp with the KC perf, but then again, who knows, anything is possible in the philatelic arena. As far as the type, I don't even like to fool with them, just too many variables for me.
Thanks for sharing that with us.
Mike
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04:15:02pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
I agree on the 3 cent KC roulette stamps, none were ever recorded. The rouletting looks more like the KC roulette type than the Wilson type from Pittsburg which was done with something like a sewing machine. I have seen some 1 and 2 cent Wilson roulette stamps but not the 3 cent although I know they did the 3 cent ( Wilson). Anyone know where I can get more into on the Wilson roulete's? Thanks
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
This was the only Kansas City Routted 3c US stamp I could find on the Internet.....Judge for yourself. What you have is a real keeper!
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
07 Feb 2013
10:31:59pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Sponthetrona - are you saying these are the same as Dave's pictures? His look like much smaller roulettes. Do you think they are KC roulettes?
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
http://www.theswedishtiger.com/x1913a.htm
Here is the page for Kansas City roulleted stamps and no they are not even close to Dave's stamps.....I do not believe they are KC either!
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Dave,
I searched the Philatelic Foundation's certificate database using the search term "roulette" -- there were 139 returns but none regarding a 3c Washington like yours.
Below are three examples of rouletting that I downloaded from the PF site so all could see expertized examples of these perforation types.
I think the only way that you'll get close to identifying what you have is to send it off for expertization but don't be surprised if it comes back "roulette of unknown origin."
If you dodecide to get an expert opinion, please let us know the outcome.
Steve
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11:31:28am
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Hi all, this is very interesting and hopefully we can figure it out. Dani, thanks for your help too. You pointed out that the stamps looked as if they did have broken rope lines. I have looked at the stamps with intense eye pieces and the line is intact for the most part. In the scott specialized cat. it has a good pic of what a 3 cent type 1 looks like. Almost no rope line, missing the 5th from the left line in the rope and the top of toga button is missing. After close inspection, there is a rope line be it light, there is a 5th line in the rope and the toga button is complete. I would say the lip lines do fit with a type 1, being thin. All the signs point to a type 2 except the lips. It could be a very strong type 1??
What also puzzles me is that the perferations look exactly like the KC perfs and not the small pin hole type of the Wilson perfs.
I should also say this is part of an old time collection I bought and all of the stamps were bought and put away in the 50s and 60s for a reference on the time frame. There are alot of interesting things in this collection, I thought I'd start with this one.
Love all the comments and help, keep the ideas coming, thanks! I will take a look at the 3 cent KC pic so they did have 3 cent KC stamps??
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11:34:28am
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Hi Steve, thanks wow those are great. I guess that's what I'll have to do, send them in. Did they have anything on 3 cent Wilson perfs? In my searches I thought I saw a 3 cent Wilson perf but I can't remember where I saw it.
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Dave,
The Philatelic Foundation's online database is a great resource -- if you haven't used it before it can be accessed at http://pfsearch.org/pfsearch/
To answer your question, there were no certificates issued for rouletted 3c stamps of the A140 design. That doesn't mean that none exist but only that the Philatelic Foundation has never received any for expertization.
Steve
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12:47:36pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Thanks Steve, I went to that data base and went through all the rouletted stamps and you are right no 3 centers. I did see a type there of the KC roulette but of unknown orig. Such as cert # 417215 and #415102. That seems to confuse the matter even more haha. So they are a KC roulette but they don't know who did it? I guess all I can do is send it in. Which is the best place to send it? 1 and 2 cent blocks of KC roulettes are worth a couple hundred or so from what I have seen.
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
What you are seeing in the inital paragraph is how the applicant described the item in his or her initial submission. What you need to focus on is what follows the words "and we are of the opinion that."
The items you cited were submitted as being KC roulettes but were determined by the PF expertizing committee to have been of unknown origin (i.e., they were not KC roulettes).
It makes more sense if you can see it in the proper context. Below is a certificate on a stamp on cover that the applicant had described as a Scott 64a (pigeon blood pink) but that the expertizing committee concluded was a Scott 64 (pink).
Steve
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Please,please someone come up with a definitive answer. These stamps are driving me nuts, I've tried every combination of words I can think of on the web to find an A-140 3c stamp that even remotely resembles Dave's stamps.
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03:41:12pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Ah ok thanks Tom, this is driving me crazy too, lol Back to work!
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11:21:11am
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
So are we all out of ideas? I just need to have it authenticated? Who is the best for doing this?
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Bill Weiss is fast and reasonable but I don't know if he'd be the best for this particular issue.
Sending it to the Philatelic Foundation or APEX are also options.
Somithing to consider is starting with the more reasonably priced stamp idenification services provided by Bill or APEX and make a decision subsequently as to whether or not you should pursue a certificate.
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03:13:35pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Thanks Tom, stamps seem alot more money to cert. compared to coins.
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
I certainly agree with Tom, as far as Weiss is concerned. He does offer a turn-around time of 7 days, whereas the others like to take a couple of months to do the same thing, even though they do pass it around to more than one expert. Bill has been an APS expert for many years, so would think he knows US stamps anyway. Bill also offers a couple of different ways to have it expertised, a quickie, or with a scan and all that goes with it.
Mike
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10:53:45am
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Does Bill Weiss have a website or is it APEX?
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
His site is at http://www.stampexpertizing.com/
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Dave,
Thank you for posting these stamps. It is one of our more interesting current discussions.
I have been holding back here because I do not collect US stamps. The reason I have no interest in US is that you have the impenetrable classics, with their various printings and grills, which are no fun, followed by the Washington Franklins, which are less fun, followed by seventy years of ubiquitous penny stamps that hold no interest, followed by unsoakable self-adhesives that cannot even be collected. Well, this is just one man’s opinion. In any event, I am claiming zero expertise.
Let me point out a few things that do not require specialized knowledge:
1. A stamp is not, what it cannot be. If the KC rouletting was done in 1914, and the stamp at issue appeared in 1916, you have your answer.
2. Since no source identifies this particular stamp as existing with an “official†postmaster applied rouletting, it must be a privately produced rouletted stamp. You can have this expertized, but “unknown origin†will be your answer. This statement assumes that you have scouted the literature for all postmaster-rouletting of Washington-Franklin stamps, which you did.
3. The white “margins†at the bottom and at the right of the pair indicate that the rouletting has not actually been used to separate this pair of stamps from the sheet. The stamps have been cut. Specifically, the existence of attached portions of the adjoining stamps at the right and bottom tell the story of a pair of imperforated stamps to which manual rouletting (tracing wheel or similar instrument?) has been applied later.
Accordingly, it is my opinion that the rouletting is a fabrication. At best, a roulette of unknown origin, which is polite for fabricated. If I were to own it, I would probably put in the corner of an album, put a little note “probably fake,†and wait for other information to become available. In any event, I would strive to ID the stamp first, before sending it for expertizing. One idea could be the APS quick ID service to first find out what it is, before sending it for expertizing. Using expertizers for stamp identification is usually a poor use of funds.
Again, it is all just opinion, the more folks you ask, the more conflicting advice you get.
Thanks again for showing these stamps.
Arno
How to use a tracing wheel
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01:07:33pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Thank you Arno!
Yes trying to just ID the Scott number has been a little tough too. Remember this pair was purchased in the 1950s by the grandfather of the person I bought it from. He had it labeled a #483 or he bought it as a #483. I thought it might be a #484 as I thought the toga line and button were stronger than a type 1. My scan may show them weaker than they are under an eye piece. Does anyone have an opinion on a #483 or #484? I guess as a private unknown roulette doesn't give it any premium value? Thanks for more input. I have other puzzeling pairs if you're interested in seeing? Thanks Dave
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Dave,
Is it asfe to assume that you've checked for a watermark and that there is none?
The identifier at http://www.1847usa.com/washfrank/3cT1_2/3cT01_02main.htm may be of help to you in identifying the stamp (I'd call it Type II).
Steve
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re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Hi Dave,
Get free expertisation from Bill Weiss by posting the images/links at Virtual Stamps Club and asking the same question. He does it regularly there for items which are confusing and if he thinks that there are possibilities he may ask youto send this for a certificate.
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02:29:46pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Thank you all
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06:28:49pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Davefor there is more information about Wilson perfs on this thread http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=5408#50399 and here http://www.americanstamphistory.com/downloads/05-Stamp%20Exh-Perfor.pdf
link activated by moderator
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-12-31 06:55:23)
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09:33:11pm
re: Puzzling 3 cent imperf with rouletting.
Here is a picture of a 3c Washington/Franklin with Wilson perfs apparently http://www.efocc.org/Resources/Hotchner_EFOs/AA_Type069.php
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(Modified by Moderator on 2013-12-31 06:54:56)
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