Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Cheers,
Peter
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02:26:49pm
Okay, I'll give it a try, although I suspect fine lines of distinction between definitions are beyond the ken of most collectors.
Fake: Something that looks like a stamp, and may resemble an existing stamp to some degree Stamps from Islands that are hardly more than bird rookeries.
Forgery; A fake of an existing stamp designed to deceive about its provenance, a forged signature, overprint or an expert's signature.
Counterfeits: A false printing designed to cheat the postal service of its revenue. Recent sheets of British NVI Machins sold on the black market to stamp kiosk venders to be resold and used by the public on envelopes.
That's the best I can do off the top of my balding head.
The floor is open to discussion while I start another big pot of coffee.
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Charlie, those are perfect.
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Nice and clear to me! Thanks Charlie.
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that's how I use the terms, too, Charlie. could it be our little universe has finally found some common nomenclature ground on which to stand?
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This may be regional thing but in my experience the three words are essentially interchangable and individual collectors use these words as they see fit.
For example, in my experience in the UK, a "false printing designed to cheat the postal service of its revenue" would normally be called a "postal forgery".
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I totally changed my post to be more concise and accurate.
Here is my take:
FAKES
1. Altered Stamps (e.g. US 304 with perfs removed to resemble 315)
2. Non-contemporary markings added (e.g fake R.F. overprint on C25 to resemble CM4)
COUNTERFEITS
1. Forgeries - intended to deceive (e.g. PR2 counterfeit with no markings)
2. Facsimilies (or Replicas) - (e.g. Newspaper stamp with "Falsch" or State Dept w/ "FACSIMILE")
Some may say:
FAKES
1. Altered Stamps
2. Counterfeits
a) Forgeries
b) Facsimilies
but the terms are NOT all interchangable.
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01:07:18am
I have no doubt that they are used colloquially interchangeably and that even technically that there is some overlap.
And sellers often are quite careless, usually on the side of puffery.
My favorite is the coin dealer who was selling genuine facsimiles of some coin and genuine reproductions. I don't know who is impressed by things like that, by apparently there is thought to be some benefit.
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I like Charlie's definition.
A fake is something made to look like something that it is not, ie; like a lot of fake Locals for companies that never existed, but the name and logo looks cool. I think a lot of people call these Cinderalla's.
Changing or altering a stamp to make it appear as another real stamp that it is not is a fraud and forgery, ie; adding a cancellation, cutting off perfs or even adding perfs to an Imperforate.
Printing duplicates of stamps to be used for postage is both fraud and counterfeiting, ie; like printing $100 bills. This one is actually criminal.
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11:23:23pm
This is a hot topic right now here on SOR and it is taking place in a number of categories and discussions.
So, I thought perhaps we should try to make a clarification of each of the categories.
I would say that Fakes and Replicas (Reproductions) are synonymous (although I could be wrong) in most circumstances.
When I think of Fakes - I think about replicas such as the cover that was recently displayed on another thread where many of us saw the "car" but not the actual stamps at first glance. Most Replicas that I have seen on eBay have been identified as Replicas. I've come across one seller who clearly identifies his "stamps" as Replicas.
When I think of Forgeries - I think of the old-time Forgers such Fournier and Spiro who have in their own place become well-known for their forgeries and due to the time frame in which these Forgeries were created, have in fact made their way into many of our collections in place of where stamps that 5 digits or more CV are beyond our ability our ability to obtain.
I use the term Reproductions separate to Replicas or Forgeries, only because I think about Helgoland (Heligoland). The ability to identify Reproductions or unauthorised Reprints in this particular area is mind-boggling and those of us who have these in our collections, I imagine, cannot say which is (or may be) genuine, unless the individual is an expert. I've even spoken to some who do issue expertising certificates of stamps who won't even go near Helgoland stamps.
When I think of Counterfeits, I think about those in our recent discussions about both early and modern stamps being reproduced and sold on eBay and other venues as either genuine or the seller leaves out details to avoid the legal issue of selling a stamp as a Counterfeit. If the seller does not use the term Genuine or any of the above and the buyer purchases said stamp and actually goes to get a certificate of authenticity only to discover the stamp is a Counterfeit, the seller can put their hands up and say (s)he never claimed in the listing that the stamp was Genuine.
I include the topic of Cinderellas because there has been quite a lot of discussion on the definition of Cinderellas. Most of us would agree an obvious Cinderella is one from a non-existent country. To a stamp collector, we know what is a legitimate country (and a quick look through the Scott index will tell us that the country does not exist). However, I have seen (heard) discussions between individuals that would consider Locals as Cinderellas. I am on the fence with this because depending on the country, political climate at the time of distribution, etc. these Locals could have in fact been used as "legitimate" postage in that area (this is definitely, in my opinion, a fence-sitting issue). Do we include stamps created by Guerilla militias as Cinderellas?
Perhaps we can consolidate our discussion of these topics into this thread. While there may be repetition of comments from the other threads, this would give us an arena to try to identify the definition of each of these terms.
Kelly
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11:25:32pm
{Post from John Derry - transferred}
re: Fakes; Replicas; Forgeries; Reproductions; Counterfeits; Cinderellas
Poodle_Mum:
Permit me to use this thread to thank Stamporama member "rraphy" for re-igniting
the lively discussion on counterfeit postage stamps. It has brought out the habitual
crowd of control freaks and frustrated inquisition foot-soldiers among us, and I like
to keep a wary eye on that mob.
"Rraphy"s concerns have also provoked comments and ideas which I find reactionary,
stimulating and educational - philatelically, secularly - and which I appreciate.
I won't be dragooned into joining Stamporama's army of modern-day Don Quixotes
marching to rid the world of counterfeit stamps (however defined) and, collaterally,
cleansing the internet in their campaigns. I will, however, salute them all as they
parade by.
May their spoils of war be bountiful.
John Derry
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12:22:12am
As there is an ongoing discussion specifically aimed at Counterfeits, I think it is important to have it linked here as well, so that everyone can follow both discussions better.
http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=7787#51229
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Thanks Poodle_Mum,
I am glad to see this covered. I go to great lengths to avoid fakes. I have a few stamps with certs more expensive than the stamps themselves! I've been doing some upgrades in a few areas by replacing stamps with plate number singles when the plate number defines the variety. Even with all that, as I was doing an audit (checking perfs and watermarks, etc.) of one section recently, I found what is most certainly a FAKE coil! It was a lower priced item that I didn't bother to scrutinize when I bought it. I guess my complacency was exactly what the original seller was counting on.
Lars
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02:48:06am
I get extremely nervous about purchasing anything in some of the lesser known German States area. I mentioned Helgoland but I've noticed a few Hamburg issues out there that are worrisome. I saw one on eBay earlier this summer that was an obvious fake (for me to catch) but then I think back to when I first started collecting German States and how ignorant I was of the forgeries and reprints and then the forgeries created based on the reprints. It is quite easy to fool people particularly in the earlier issues if they are unaware. Even those of us who do have a good foundation of research in this area still have trouble. Some of the forgeries are so good, you can barely notice it. Another area of trouble is in the early States issues before Italy came into existence. Oy! I just take the road of assuming mine are either reprints or forgeries until I eventually have time to really take a good look at them under my microscope and have some handy reference material to go by before I assume any of them are genuine issues.
To be honest, I hadn't considered the issue of modern stamps being counterfeits. My general interest in worldwide ends approx. at WWI era. So the discussion on modern issues being counterfeits or unidentified replicas really caught me off guard.
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To see how bad the situation is, please read the Wiki article on Clive Feigenbaum.
Note that he was the chairman of Stanley Gibbons in the mid 1980s!
I ran into him at a ASDA stamp show not too long ago. He had a stand! And some nice looking material, on the surface all real and rare and reasonably priced. I just could not......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Feigenbaum
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-11-16 15:16:37)
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Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
My take: No. Most of the terms mean very specific things to most people. There are 100+ years of philatelic research, for instance, defining what a reprint is -- produced from the original plates with subtle differences in terminology if the new printing occurred during or after the validity of the initial print, was initiated by the postal authority or a third party, or constituted valid postage or not. So, I personally accept what philatelists internationally have adopted as proper categories and terminology since the defining work on the subject by Paul Ohrt (1907). But my friend John (DRYER) is much wiser than me in such things. He knows that it is futile to even attempt to establish some kind of common understanding on anything.
Nevertheless, at the minimum, I don't see a point to redefine the categories adopted by all major international stamp catalogs. Scott defines all of the terms in question at length in the foreword to each catalog. Michel identifies with different symbols in the catalog listings, postal forgeries, aka counterfeits, intended to defraud the postal system; philatelic forgeries; propaganda forgeries (primarily of WWII provenance); and (official) reprints. Accordingly, if you see the term "fake," "replica," "phony," "sham," etc. stamp, likely the item falls in one of the four above categories.
As for bogus issues/seals/labels/cinderellas this group has in common that they are not postage stamps, nor imitations of actually existing postage stamps. For my purposes it is sufficient to identify these as "not-stamps." I don't collect these and therefore do not know of any widely accepted categorization. I recall however that we had a recent discussion attempting definitions of these. Definitions are best attempted for such items by those actually collecting them.
Arno
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Dear rrraphy,
Your suggestion and references below to websites to help in the identifications of counterfeits may be exactly the kind of references we as a club could use to help the membership. As you point out, perhaps we could develop a listing for each of the countries in which interest is expressed and have it available on our articles section? Personally I’d be most happy to assist in developing this reference resource if we could muster enough interest in it to make the effort worthwhile. Just thinking out loud so far.
Dan C.
http://www.pwmo.org/articles/rough-trade.htm
http://www.scads.org/reference/reference.htm
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-11-16 19:33:10)
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The only thing I would change on what's being defined is for "counterfeit". A counterfeit stamp is made with the intent to defraud the government. All the other terms describe various ways that unscrupulous people swindle collectors.
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07:06:54pm
Here's another discussion thread along the same topic. And yes, apparently there are stamps on the envelope, a car and a cloud - although, I admit, I too am one of the people that missed all of the above at first glance 
http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=22&id=51196#51196
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Nice topic, one of the most popular on the WWW !
Nice to see so many opinions about what is and what isn't...even from those living under the same flag !!
The GB 1st Class Machin shown by Charlie a while back would be a forgery in the UK, not a counterfeit. Indeed, the term counterfeit is not used often in Britain.
Terminology differs greatly from nation to nation...or as seen in this thread, person to person !! 
And other terms equally befitting this topic would be Bogus (mentioned briefly), Reproductions and Reprints.
As for myself, I collect them all as part of my Cinderella collection although I do try to steer clear of the Bogus types.
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Dear Londonbus1,
The CSA's you just posted are part of a Lithographed not-real series, unlike the same series called "Atlanta Trials" which are considered collectible examples of the CSA issues.In your series (not real) they do serve a purpose to acquaint the collector with the color,picture die and stones used. The original real issues would cost the collector upwards of $12,000+ if memory serves, while these illustrative copies would sell for several dollars for the set.(Nothing you personally didn't know of course-just showing off for the newbies among us.)
Dan C.
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dani20
Yes, there are many reproductions of the confederates, the two shown are just examples. Incidentally, they were without underprints. I have a Tasco Booklet from the Tatham Stamp Company,Springfield in which the reproductions are in blocks with a Facsimilie No.*** underprint on some but not all and in different colours.
The Confederate reproductions are a real challenge and is one of my favourite sections of my Cinderella collection, albeit still a mess !!
Let's see what else I can find.......
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Below is a reproduction of a Danish Nazi Party label. Obviously a repro but reasonably well done.
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05:11:13am
Wow - that is an awesome label. I've added a few "fantasy" Reich "stamps" to my German collection. I've never been good at finding them though.
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Yes, there are some lovely Reich Fantasy stamps about if one can find them. The difference between those and the DNSAP label I showed is that the latter were actually printed and used in Denmark during the Occupation while Fantasy stamps are a product of someone's active imagination ! 
Here's a modern-day Fantasy.......
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...and here's a reproduction of a 1941 Nazi Propaganda issue.
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Below is a reproduction sheet of one issued (1d-4 Potatoes) and 8 unissued designs for Tristan da Cunha by Cluett Burns of Southampton, England. All Imperf and in original colours.
The issued stamp was perforated.
The stamps were designed (1943-1946) by British Meteorologist Allan B.Crawford who had worked on the Island in the late 1930's, and who felt strongly the need for Postage stamps.
Somewhere in my reproduction/forgeries/facsimiles collection I have a reproduction sheet of 4 of the printed design signed by Mr.Crawford.
The issued design was for local use and covers exist with the addition of regular postage stamps.
Lovely,lovely designs that never were ! 
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Reproduction block of 4 issued for London 2010, A Festival of Stamps. This one was official......it was produced for Royal Mail !!
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Here's another.......a reproduction of an essay put forward for the Centenary issue of Great Britain in 1940. Unadopted. This design formed part of a souvenir sheet inserted in the show programme at StampWorld 1990 in London.
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Here's one from Canada ! An Imperf block of 4 of the 12d 1851 issue. How I wish this was real !!
I cannot remember if the one below is upside down or not ? 
If anyone can help.......
Londonbus1....fun isn't it !! 
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06:12:13pm
Oh pretty!!!!
The bottom one - the Queen is inverted or the numbers are.
I'd love the original!!
Kelly
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"The bottom one - the Queen is inverted or the numbers are.
"
Yes, I still haven't figured out which it is !
Maybe one of our Canadian experts will chime in.
Here is a scarce and expensive reproduction sheet of an unadopted design for the KGV Jubilee in 1935.
This Cinderella subject can be quite rewarding at times and a decent collection need not be just cheap copies to be discarded !!
It's fun too.
Here is the Philatelist King.....
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05:55:08pm
I think it's the Queen that's inverted - now that I've had a second chance to look at it. The framework seems to be "intact" in design so the Queen is actually doing a "head-stand" - can't say a "hand-stand" since being the delicate lady she was in portraits, her hands would always be at her waist, never resting on her lap but slightly above. That's how they keep their shoulders squared off in portraits 
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01:28:59pm
I see these terms used differently to describe different things; a purposeful changing of a design to mimic a rarer item has been called a fake or a forgery, for example. Similarly, non-postal applied cancels designed to fool collectors have been called all three. Is there a guideline as to how these terms are used in philately?
Cheers,
Peter
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
04 Jun 2013
02:26:49pm
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Okay, I'll give it a try, although I suspect fine lines of distinction between definitions are beyond the ken of most collectors.
Fake: Something that looks like a stamp, and may resemble an existing stamp to some degree Stamps from Islands that are hardly more than bird rookeries.
Forgery; A fake of an existing stamp designed to deceive about its provenance, a forged signature, overprint or an expert's signature.
Counterfeits: A false printing designed to cheat the postal service of its revenue. Recent sheets of British NVI Machins sold on the black market to stamp kiosk venders to be resold and used by the public on envelopes.
That's the best I can do off the top of my balding head.
The floor is open to discussion while I start another big pot of coffee.
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Charlie, those are perfect.
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03:56:19pm
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Nice and clear to me! Thanks Charlie.
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Auctions
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
that's how I use the terms, too, Charlie. could it be our little universe has finally found some common nomenclature ground on which to stand?
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
This may be regional thing but in my experience the three words are essentially interchangable and individual collectors use these words as they see fit.
For example, in my experience in the UK, a "false printing designed to cheat the postal service of its revenue" would normally be called a "postal forgery".
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
I totally changed my post to be more concise and accurate.
Here is my take:
FAKES
1. Altered Stamps (e.g. US 304 with perfs removed to resemble 315)
2. Non-contemporary markings added (e.g fake R.F. overprint on C25 to resemble CM4)
COUNTERFEITS
1. Forgeries - intended to deceive (e.g. PR2 counterfeit with no markings)
2. Facsimilies (or Replicas) - (e.g. Newspaper stamp with "Falsch" or State Dept w/ "FACSIMILE")
Some may say:
FAKES
1. Altered Stamps
2. Counterfeits
a) Forgeries
b) Facsimilies
but the terms are NOT all interchangable.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
06 Jun 2013
01:07:18am
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
I have no doubt that they are used colloquially interchangeably and that even technically that there is some overlap.
And sellers often are quite careless, usually on the side of puffery.
My favorite is the coin dealer who was selling genuine facsimiles of some coin and genuine reproductions. I don't know who is impressed by things like that, by apparently there is thought to be some benefit.
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
I like Charlie's definition.
A fake is something made to look like something that it is not, ie; like a lot of fake Locals for companies that never existed, but the name and logo looks cool. I think a lot of people call these Cinderalla's.
Changing or altering a stamp to make it appear as another real stamp that it is not is a fraud and forgery, ie; adding a cancellation, cutting off perfs or even adding perfs to an Imperforate.
Printing duplicates of stamps to be used for postage is both fraud and counterfeiting, ie; like printing $100 bills. This one is actually criminal.
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15 Nov 2013
11:23:23pm
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
This is a hot topic right now here on SOR and it is taking place in a number of categories and discussions.
So, I thought perhaps we should try to make a clarification of each of the categories.
I would say that Fakes and Replicas (Reproductions) are synonymous (although I could be wrong) in most circumstances.
When I think of Fakes - I think about replicas such as the cover that was recently displayed on another thread where many of us saw the "car" but not the actual stamps at first glance. Most Replicas that I have seen on eBay have been identified as Replicas. I've come across one seller who clearly identifies his "stamps" as Replicas.
When I think of Forgeries - I think of the old-time Forgers such Fournier and Spiro who have in their own place become well-known for their forgeries and due to the time frame in which these Forgeries were created, have in fact made their way into many of our collections in place of where stamps that 5 digits or more CV are beyond our ability our ability to obtain.
I use the term Reproductions separate to Replicas or Forgeries, only because I think about Helgoland (Heligoland). The ability to identify Reproductions or unauthorised Reprints in this particular area is mind-boggling and those of us who have these in our collections, I imagine, cannot say which is (or may be) genuine, unless the individual is an expert. I've even spoken to some who do issue expertising certificates of stamps who won't even go near Helgoland stamps.
When I think of Counterfeits, I think about those in our recent discussions about both early and modern stamps being reproduced and sold on eBay and other venues as either genuine or the seller leaves out details to avoid the legal issue of selling a stamp as a Counterfeit. If the seller does not use the term Genuine or any of the above and the buyer purchases said stamp and actually goes to get a certificate of authenticity only to discover the stamp is a Counterfeit, the seller can put their hands up and say (s)he never claimed in the listing that the stamp was Genuine.
I include the topic of Cinderellas because there has been quite a lot of discussion on the definition of Cinderellas. Most of us would agree an obvious Cinderella is one from a non-existent country. To a stamp collector, we know what is a legitimate country (and a quick look through the Scott index will tell us that the country does not exist). However, I have seen (heard) discussions between individuals that would consider Locals as Cinderellas. I am on the fence with this because depending on the country, political climate at the time of distribution, etc. these Locals could have in fact been used as "legitimate" postage in that area (this is definitely, in my opinion, a fence-sitting issue). Do we include stamps created by Guerilla militias as Cinderellas?
Perhaps we can consolidate our discussion of these topics into this thread. While there may be repetition of comments from the other threads, this would give us an arena to try to identify the definition of each of these terms.
Kelly
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
15 Nov 2013
11:25:32pm
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
{Post from John Derry - transferred}
re: Fakes; Replicas; Forgeries; Reproductions; Counterfeits; Cinderellas
Poodle_Mum:
Permit me to use this thread to thank Stamporama member "rraphy" for re-igniting
the lively discussion on counterfeit postage stamps. It has brought out the habitual
crowd of control freaks and frustrated inquisition foot-soldiers among us, and I like
to keep a wary eye on that mob.
"Rraphy"s concerns have also provoked comments and ideas which I find reactionary,
stimulating and educational - philatelically, secularly - and which I appreciate.
I won't be dragooned into joining Stamporama's army of modern-day Don Quixotes
marching to rid the world of counterfeit stamps (however defined) and, collaterally,
cleansing the internet in their campaigns. I will, however, salute them all as they
parade by.
May their spoils of war be bountiful.
John Derry
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
16 Nov 2013
12:22:12am
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
As there is an ongoing discussion specifically aimed at Counterfeits, I think it is important to have it linked here as well, so that everyone can follow both discussions better.
http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=7787#51229
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Thanks Poodle_Mum,
I am glad to see this covered. I go to great lengths to avoid fakes. I have a few stamps with certs more expensive than the stamps themselves! I've been doing some upgrades in a few areas by replacing stamps with plate number singles when the plate number defines the variety. Even with all that, as I was doing an audit (checking perfs and watermarks, etc.) of one section recently, I found what is most certainly a FAKE coil! It was a lower priced item that I didn't bother to scrutinize when I bought it. I guess my complacency was exactly what the original seller was counting on.
Lars
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
16 Nov 2013
02:48:06am
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
I get extremely nervous about purchasing anything in some of the lesser known German States area. I mentioned Helgoland but I've noticed a few Hamburg issues out there that are worrisome. I saw one on eBay earlier this summer that was an obvious fake (for me to catch) but then I think back to when I first started collecting German States and how ignorant I was of the forgeries and reprints and then the forgeries created based on the reprints. It is quite easy to fool people particularly in the earlier issues if they are unaware. Even those of us who do have a good foundation of research in this area still have trouble. Some of the forgeries are so good, you can barely notice it. Another area of trouble is in the early States issues before Italy came into existence. Oy! I just take the road of assuming mine are either reprints or forgeries until I eventually have time to really take a good look at them under my microscope and have some handy reference material to go by before I assume any of them are genuine issues.
To be honest, I hadn't considered the issue of modern stamps being counterfeits. My general interest in worldwide ends approx. at WWI era. So the discussion on modern issues being counterfeits or unidentified replicas really caught me off guard.
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16 Nov 2013
03:09:48pm
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
To see how bad the situation is, please read the Wiki article on Clive Feigenbaum.
Note that he was the chairman of Stanley Gibbons in the mid 1980s!
I ran into him at a ASDA stamp show not too long ago. He had a stand! And some nice looking material, on the surface all real and rare and reasonably priced. I just could not......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Feigenbaum
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-11-16 15:16:37)
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
My take: No. Most of the terms mean very specific things to most people. There are 100+ years of philatelic research, for instance, defining what a reprint is -- produced from the original plates with subtle differences in terminology if the new printing occurred during or after the validity of the initial print, was initiated by the postal authority or a third party, or constituted valid postage or not. So, I personally accept what philatelists internationally have adopted as proper categories and terminology since the defining work on the subject by Paul Ohrt (1907). But my friend John (DRYER) is much wiser than me in such things. He knows that it is futile to even attempt to establish some kind of common understanding on anything.
Nevertheless, at the minimum, I don't see a point to redefine the categories adopted by all major international stamp catalogs. Scott defines all of the terms in question at length in the foreword to each catalog. Michel identifies with different symbols in the catalog listings, postal forgeries, aka counterfeits, intended to defraud the postal system; philatelic forgeries; propaganda forgeries (primarily of WWII provenance); and (official) reprints. Accordingly, if you see the term "fake," "replica," "phony," "sham," etc. stamp, likely the item falls in one of the four above categories.
As for bogus issues/seals/labels/cinderellas this group has in common that they are not postage stamps, nor imitations of actually existing postage stamps. For my purposes it is sufficient to identify these as "not-stamps." I don't collect these and therefore do not know of any widely accepted categorization. I recall however that we had a recent discussion attempting definitions of these. Definitions are best attempted for such items by those actually collecting them.
Arno
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Dear rrraphy,
Your suggestion and references below to websites to help in the identifications of counterfeits may be exactly the kind of references we as a club could use to help the membership. As you point out, perhaps we could develop a listing for each of the countries in which interest is expressed and have it available on our articles section? Personally I’d be most happy to assist in developing this reference resource if we could muster enough interest in it to make the effort worthwhile. Just thinking out loud so far.
Dan C.
http://www.pwmo.org/articles/rough-trade.htm
http://www.scads.org/reference/reference.htm
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-11-16 19:33:10)
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
The only thing I would change on what's being defined is for "counterfeit". A counterfeit stamp is made with the intent to defraud the government. All the other terms describe various ways that unscrupulous people swindle collectors.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
16 Nov 2013
07:06:54pm
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Here's another discussion thread along the same topic. And yes, apparently there are stamps on the envelope, a car and a cloud - although, I admit, I too am one of the people that missed all of the above at first glance
http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=22&id=51196#51196
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Nice topic, one of the most popular on the WWW !
Nice to see so many opinions about what is and what isn't...even from those living under the same flag !!
The GB 1st Class Machin shown by Charlie a while back would be a forgery in the UK, not a counterfeit. Indeed, the term counterfeit is not used often in Britain.
Terminology differs greatly from nation to nation...or as seen in this thread, person to person !!
And other terms equally befitting this topic would be Bogus (mentioned briefly), Reproductions and Reprints.
As for myself, I collect them all as part of my Cinderella collection although I do try to steer clear of the Bogus types.
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Dear Londonbus1,
The CSA's you just posted are part of a Lithographed not-real series, unlike the same series called "Atlanta Trials" which are considered collectible examples of the CSA issues.In your series (not real) they do serve a purpose to acquaint the collector with the color,picture die and stones used. The original real issues would cost the collector upwards of $12,000+ if memory serves, while these illustrative copies would sell for several dollars for the set.(Nothing you personally didn't know of course-just showing off for the newbies among us.)
Dan C.
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
dani20
Yes, there are many reproductions of the confederates, the two shown are just examples. Incidentally, they were without underprints. I have a Tasco Booklet from the Tatham Stamp Company,Springfield in which the reproductions are in blocks with a Facsimilie No.*** underprint on some but not all and in different colours.
The Confederate reproductions are a real challenge and is one of my favourite sections of my Cinderella collection, albeit still a mess !!
Let's see what else I can find.......
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Below is a reproduction of a Danish Nazi Party label. Obviously a repro but reasonably well done.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
21 Nov 2013
05:11:13am
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Wow - that is an awesome label. I've added a few "fantasy" Reich "stamps" to my German collection. I've never been good at finding them though.
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Yes, there are some lovely Reich Fantasy stamps about if one can find them. The difference between those and the DNSAP label I showed is that the latter were actually printed and used in Denmark during the Occupation while Fantasy stamps are a product of someone's active imagination !
Here's a modern-day Fantasy.......
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
...and here's a reproduction of a 1941 Nazi Propaganda issue.
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Below is a reproduction sheet of one issued (1d-4 Potatoes) and 8 unissued designs for Tristan da Cunha by Cluett Burns of Southampton, England. All Imperf and in original colours.
The issued stamp was perforated.
The stamps were designed (1943-1946) by British Meteorologist Allan B.Crawford who had worked on the Island in the late 1930's, and who felt strongly the need for Postage stamps.
Somewhere in my reproduction/forgeries/facsimiles collection I have a reproduction sheet of 4 of the printed design signed by Mr.Crawford.
The issued design was for local use and covers exist with the addition of regular postage stamps.
Lovely,lovely designs that never were !
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Reproduction block of 4 issued for London 2010, A Festival of Stamps. This one was official......it was produced for Royal Mail !!
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Here's another.......a reproduction of an essay put forward for the Centenary issue of Great Britain in 1940. Unadopted. This design formed part of a souvenir sheet inserted in the show programme at StampWorld 1990 in London.
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Here's one from Canada ! An Imperf block of 4 of the 12d 1851 issue. How I wish this was real !!
I cannot remember if the one below is upside down or not ?
If anyone can help.......
Londonbus1....fun isn't it !!
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
24 Nov 2013
06:12:13pm
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
Oh pretty!!!!
The bottom one - the Queen is inverted or the numbers are.
I'd love the original!!
Kelly
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re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
"The bottom one - the Queen is inverted or the numbers are.
"
Yes, I still haven't figured out which it is !
Maybe one of our Canadian experts will chime in.
Here is a scarce and expensive reproduction sheet of an unadopted design for the KGV Jubilee in 1935.
This Cinderella subject can be quite rewarding at times and a decent collection need not be just cheap copies to be discarded !!
It's fun too.
Here is the Philatelist King.....
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
25 Nov 2013
05:55:08pm
re: Fakes, Forgeries, Counterfeits, Replicas and Cinderellas: Semantics?
I think it's the Queen that's inverted - now that I've had a second chance to look at it. The framework seems to be "intact" in design so the Queen is actually doing a "head-stand" - can't say a "hand-stand" since being the delicate lady she was in portraits, her hands would always be at her waist, never resting on her lap but slightly above. That's how they keep their shoulders squared off in portraits
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