Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I find the general Stamp Auction Categories inadequate...confused and unstructured.
Should the categories reflect the current offerings (as it seems to do...but maybe I am wrong) or should it be a Structural System that is systematic, best satisfies the needs of collectors and sellers alike, and allows for simple expansion if needed.
In all cases, it needs to be refined and recast, in my opinion.
The current Auction Category System itself seems to recognize some of its shortcomings.
Example: I collect Middle Eastern Stamps, and I find it deserves its own category (it is currently lumped with Asia and cannot be separated in a sort). What would trigger its being granted equal status?
I also wonder if Europe does not merit its own label (and countries would then ratchet down one level), Latin America and Caribbean deserve separate status, The colonial powers and their colonies deserve setting sub levels..etc..etc..
Now that being said, I remember we had quite a big discussion on Categories over the years, on other forums. A more refined and structured category system, in my opinion, helps doing business.
When sorting, it helps locate items. A hierarchical system with better groupings and more refined levels would be my recommendation.
I was distracted in my efforts to post some items for auction, and in my search for auction items of interest by the current limitations of the existing structure, and the limitations of the sort function.
Should we take a look at it from the bottom up?
I am new here, and I don't wish to create more work just for the sake of my perception of a proper system, or rock the boat (when the boat seems to be sailing well)...so I am asking: what do you think?
rrr...
On a separate question, where do watched items go and how do you retrieve them?
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The list of items that you are Watching is shown on the Open Lots screen under the Buyers dropdown.
Tim.
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Thanks Tim...Re Watched List: I looked and I have nothing showing...and yet I did put some items on my watch list, so I wonder if I may have missed a step.. I will test just to see where I went wrong.
rrr
PS: Got it...
must have made a wrong maneuver. It works! Thanks for the prompt response.
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It has been quite a while since we reviewed the Auction categories, so I'm open to reviewing them. As you think about them keep a couple of things in mind.
1. The Auction is written with a single level of categories. Some sites are more elaborate and break the category structure down in a complex tree structure. I don't want to do that, for many reasons, the largest of which would be the amount of work for me.
2. Picture the Post a New Lot screen and the list of category check boxes that you have to chose from. You don't want to make it to complex so that it is difficult to post a new lot.
3. Picture the Auction Categories screen. You don't want so many categories that this screen goes on forever.
That said, the categories can be placed in any order. They aren't sorted alphabetically, they are ordered by a redetermined sequence number.
So, like rrraphy, I'm interested in your thoughts.
Regards ... Tim.
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What I have noticed is that when the auction ends it is removed or deleted from the watch list.
Tim what happens to the pictures of a delete auction. I did notice that in the members area that all the picture I have uploaded remain. At some point do I need to delete them also.
Ross
Edit-spelling
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The pictures associated with all auction lots are held on the server. Unsold lots can be relisted and will use the same image files. I have a maintenance program that runs on a regular basis and cleans up very old auction images.
Tim.
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That's good to know about the pic files. I was wondering that myself. It seemed the list of stored image files could get gargantuan in size.
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Doug,
All true about the number of image files. Each image file is tracked in the database so we know what it relates to so we know when it is appropriate to delete it.
Regards ... Tim
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Keeping in mind Tim's request of staying in a single layer, and keeping the size of the list under some constraints, for size reasons, I am suggesting the following minor changes in the Category List.
1. USA and Territories (cat name change) (If you use the Scott specialty catalog as a guideline, UN could go there...deleting one existing layer with just a few items)
2. Add PORTUGAL and COLONIES
3. Add (Former) EAST EUROPE
Split
4. ASIA
5. MIDDLE EAST
Split
6. LATIN AMERICA
7. CARIBBEANS
I can see the need, down the road, for possibly splitting the other European Colonial Empires (Italy & Col) (Spain & Col) (Belgium & Col), but only if requested and supported by the volume of auction items.
For now, I am just throwing these simple changes for perusal and comments. What do you think?
I also suggest that we establish a Second Layer, FOR DEFINITION PURPOSES. as people may be confused by the first layer, (or am I assuming too little/much) (and List alphabetically in this second layer)
But we should at least keep it in mind, should we wish to go to a hierarchical structure one day (2 layers?).
I wonder if there is a way to display the total number of items currently in the Auction Categories, at the top of each category (country or area), when sorted on it.
Trying hard not to get carried away. No point in just creating more work 
...so your suggestions are requested.
These are just mine 
.
Rrr...
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When you say you'd like to see the total number of auction category, do you mean once you go into the auction category you'd like to see the total in the category displayed ?
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Yes, the number of items. a running total.
For example on a keyword search (France) what are the number of items listed:
Total.
Closing in 24 hours
New (Added in last 24 hours?)
This would save a lot of time, especially if the number is shown at the top of the page.
rrr....
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Rrr,
I've gotcha (I think) on this one.
Considering that I have a limitation on the the number of category levels, do you thing that offering he concept of tags would help?
Regards ... Tim
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Webmaster (Tim Auld):
I respectfully request we defer any action on this request until the Auctioneer (David Teisler) weighs in.
My experience tells me he has to be a part of resolving this issue.
As a buyer, I am not interested in more categories, please keep it simple.
John Derry
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Hi John,
You can relax on this one. This thread, as I'm sure Rrr will agree, is to collect ideas. David is our Auctioneer and I know when he feels it appropriate, he will join the discussion.
Regards ... Tim
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I did write elsewhere but it hasn't been picked up yet.
So as this thread is 'hot' I'll have another pop.
Just like on the discussion board, except for the USA, there is no section for Cinderellas.
Could this be rectified ? In both areas ?
Without them it makes posting and selling very difficult about that area of Philately.
Any thoughts?
Londonbus1
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Just to underline my point, member Martin has just posted a question about Australian Cinderellas in the USA Discussion section !!
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07:01:49am
" .... You don't want to make it to complex so that it is difficult to post a new lot. ...."
Or difficult to view lots that have been listed.
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Michael, I couldn't find Martin's post about an Australian Cinderella. Can you supply the URL just so i can see.
As to developing categories in the auction and DB for Cinderellas, I'm not vehemently opposed to either, but until your arrival, there were only four of us who ever even knowingly touched a Cinderella: another Mike, from Florida; Liz, up Salt Spring Island way; Kathy, who hasn't participated much in the last several years; and me. Lee occasionally posts some oddities in the auction on my behalf. And Gene added one this week. Pretty sparse pickings. We used to be blessed with the presence of Anne Mette Heindorff, who's Danish seal collection and knowledge were second probably to none (well, maybe to Paaby's), but she's left us far poorer.
I don't want to be adding categories in either forum if there isn't some critical mass. And, with the participation levels we see now in both media, I don't quite see it.
I am not against Cinderellas; far from it. I've added a couple of short articles on them here, and am fairly active in a couple of seal areas.
A number of us continue to talk about revising our categories (the DB sections underwent a major overhaul not long ago; and enormous energy went into what you see now).
I say all this so you will know we're not deaf to your entreaties. We're discussing it.
David
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Here's the URL David
http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=7077#44914
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10:55:42am
If sellers would title their auctions more precisely, there would be no need for any renaming or re-categorization. The "Search" by "key word" function is fast, accurate and complete if the "key word" is in the title. There is ample room to include a lot of information in the title (more so than eBay) and if a seller lists a "Cinderella" with "Cinderella" in the title, a search" will find it. Same with "Portuguese" for Portuguese colonies or “colonies†for any colonial possession.
I think if we would spend our time educating Sellers on how to better title auctions and Buyers on how to use the Search function, this entire discussion would be academic.
Just an opinion...
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I'm with Dryer and Bobby on this one. KISS!!!
Mike
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This may surprise my friends from bidStart, as I was one of the biggest proponents of more relevant categories for selling over there, but ... I'm with Bobby and Mike here too. This is not a commercial sales site and I agree, a well titled item is sufficient for what we can do here. I said in another post that category specialization will never please everyone; each collector will have a specific area that they feel is not sufficiently represented, as we all "fly speck" and micro-organize what we have.
Giving his 2c worth,
Peter
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Well said, Peter. Stamporama has been discussing stamp categories since its inception
and periodically modifying same. It's in our club's DNA.
My personal book library has two categories, fiction and non-fiction. My public library
uses the Dewey decimal system to categorize its inventory and, apparently,
an infinite number of categories is still not enough to slot all its books.
As repeatedly suggested, an aptly described auction lot and use of the "search" tool should help members
such as myself who are too easily led astray by electronic bells and whistles.
John Derry (micro-organizer)
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Count me in as a proponent for fewer categories and better titles with search terms.
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11:10:27am
".... I think if we would spend our time educating Sellers on how to better title auctions and Buyers on how to use the Search function, this entire discussion would be academic. ...."
Hear! Hear!
Came the roar from the back benches along with stomping of feet and thumping of thick frosty mugs.
And a few sellers might just spend a little time getting the country right for the items they list.
A few, not a lot, but sometimes far enough from accurate to cause me to choke on the swill we serve here in coffee mugs.
I usually laugh and figure someone was posting lots long past his, or her bedtime.
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Even at bidStart, and with experienced long time sellers (such as some here now!), with all those categories and subcategories, etc. ... I've found listings in the wrong category, but rarely was the country in the title inconsistent with the image. For example, one seller had about 50 stamps showing German stamp images, with a title "Germany" followed by the Scott number, any topical description, condition, etc., BUT all 50 were listed in a search I did under British Commonwealth! Now, I know the British Empire was vast and they had terrific aspirations for extending it, but Germany? LOL!
A simple mistake from bulk uploading a bunch of Brit Comm stamps and using the same category template for the German stamps. But it makes the point: Attention to the title is the key in searches, not categories, IMHO.
Stay searchable, my friends!
Peter
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I have done that on BS. I comes from using the "List Similar" function. When you use that, it goes directly to the listing page. It should take you to the category page to verify that it is still the same. It is the logic in the programming using the "similar", meaning a presumption that if it was a stamp from the Bahamas that was last listed, that the next stamp to be listed will be from the Bahamas.
I guess that's a change that should be requested over there.
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For the proponents of "KISS" why have any category at all?
The sort capability does it all! 
A category system forces order, just like assigned fields (which is another one of my mantra calls). Imagine searching through your Scott catalog for the British Colonies without an Alphabetical listing!
I think a reasonable level of categories is mandatory. Now let us define what is the MINIMUM set that most find reasonable....realizing that it will be different for everyone, and we will never please everyone. Why a separate US and a Canada categories, and not a North America? Because many here collect these areas, and would like the two separately. Same for the rest!
So reviewing the options:
1.Simplest: No categories...zero Let us rely on the sort capability
2.Next: Regional Breakdown (as we want to define regions and groupings)
3.Next: Add the major collecting areas (of interest to people here), no countries
4.Next: A systematic system based on pure logic. Including Countries under regions.
5.Next: A One dimensional system that prints on one page (My maximum list size)..custom combination of the above
6.Next: A 2-layered System, with hierarchical levels
7.Finally a multi-layered system
So I am just suggesting we take a look at the current categories, and modify them as makes sense for the majority here. Everyone agrees that we are currently somewhere in a version of #5 above...but take a close look...is it adequate? What would you remove? Add?
On the sort capability, it would work fine if we could force a number of assigned fields to all listings..ie they must be included. At minimum for me is product type (stamp, cover, fdc, cards, s/s, etc) country name, date of issue, cat(define which one) Cat#, condition (MNH, Unused (M),used, defects), and price. But many of these could disappear if you used categories...I have highlighted in bold my minimum set.
But the sort option fails miserably when people use their own notations, spelling, abbreviations etc..Think about US, USA, U.S., United States, etc.. it is a good example of why sorts fail...and I am not even including typos (spell for me Tajikstan), so this is the reason above all for a DEFINED category system and ASSIGNED fields, and CLICKABLE items.
I can work the current system, any system...but I am suggesting that we should always seek to improve it (my goal), if it is not a burden to implement and if it does not unnecessarily complicate what we have.
rrr...
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to cdj1122 Quote: re: Auction Categories
".... I think if we would spend our time educating Sellers on how to better title auctions and Buyers on how to use the Search function, this entire discussion would be academic. ...."
And a few sellers might just spend a little time getting the country right for the items they list.
A few, not a lot, but sometimes far enough from accurate to cause me to choke on the swill we serve here in coffee mugs.
I usually laugh and figure someone was posting lots long past his, or her bedtime."
As a buyer, I would like a simple way to communicate back to the seller to point any listing errors. I was looking for a link... like a contact the seller clickable link to click on and send an Instant message or email. I could not find it. I always make a point of signalling errors when I spot them, but it must be a simple step, or I won't do it. Am I missing something here?
rrr....
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More on: "But the sort option fails miserably when people use their own notations, spelling, abbreviations etc..Think about US, USA, U.S., United States, etc.. it is a good example of why sorts fail...and I am not even including typos (spell for me Tajikstan), so this is the reason above all for a DEFINED category system and ASSIGNED fields, and CLICKABLE items."
One of the biggest problem I encounter is sorting on category number...
As an example say USA Scott # 1955
People when listing always abbreviate. A range 1950-1959, 1950-59, 1950-9, year 1955 (often abbreviated to 55), my inventory number A-1955, all may cause failure when you search on key words.
Imagine the problem for low numbers (1-100). Now you add compounding effects, all of the above, especially abbreviated ranges, plus number of stamps...etc.... So, how would you handle this issue? I find I HAVE to work from a category system, a COUNTRY basis first...(USA here) then scan the list.
rrr....
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Ralph:
I don't think you are missing anything here.. I find your ideas and your zeal refreshing.
Some of it may be misplaced.
We are a stamp club, not a profit-motivated, time, motion and energy efficient entity
in pursuit of Swiss-watch operation. I see no ground-swell of enthusiasm for reconstructing
the auction board system of categories. It is the club's proverbial bone that one's dog gnaws on.
I am constantly prowling around the auction board. The errors and omissions I note are part
and parcel of what makes Stamporama an amateur stamp club and I like it that way. It's comforting.
If Stamporama's website was bought out by some commercial postage-stamp company, your suggestions
would be imposed, not proposed. I wouldn't be comfortable with that.
My personal opinion as an ordinary member of Stamporama is that stamp-selling members have
a disproportionate amount of influence on our webmaster, although he may not agree with me.
Submitted for information, not disparagement,
John Derry
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I second that John.
There are probably as many reasons for joining SOR as there are ways to collect stamps. Suggestions for improvement seem to always be welcome at SOR even if the only results are a friendly debate.
Like the discussion board the auction draws a lot of attention from perspective members as well as keeping the current members interested.
Ralph if you were here a few months ago you would have experienced the slow and often emotional process of implementing changes at SOR.
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The one thing I like about the auction part of the site is the simple catagory listings. I would like to see it stay the way it is now.
If all sellers would title there lots starting with the Country Name, then Cat Number and which Cat, eg. Scott, Stanly Gibbons, etc. and the the condition, eg. Mint Never Hinged, Mint Hinged, Used, etc.
Doug
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A reminder Stamporama is not an outlet to sell old collections, however, the club is here to assist you in discovering what you have and learn to enjoy the hobby of stamp collecting.
Let's enjoy collecting before we worry about selling. I think (my opinion) the committee has done an outstanding job defining categories and should be left well enough alone.......Perry
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"I say all this so you will know we're not deaf to your entreaties. We're discussing it."
Not a problem at all. In the auctions I can get around it by posting in the country and 'Other' Philatelic items.
But is it OK to post in the Discussion area, as Martin did, in the USA section about Non-USA Cinderellas ?? It could be misleading.
Londonbus1
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Michael, yes, OR any other category you deem most appropriate.
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If all sellers would title there lots starting with the Country Name, then Cat Number and which Cat, eg. Scott, Stanley Gibbons, etc. and the the condition, eg. Mint Never Hinged, Mint Hinged, Used, etc
Doug,
Yes, that and the catalog value. Some of us don't even look at lots that don't have some sort of CV listed.
Mike
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The catalogue value does not mean a thing unless a viewer knows which catalogue and the year of the catalogue publication the seller is using for valuation purposes. Prices listed in catalogues change from year to year and what might have been a catalogue pricing of say $2.00 four years ago may be listed at 20 cents in the current catalogue. The title of each auction lot is limited by a certain number of characters.
If you are going to show catalogue values in your auction listings it has been stated here on Stamporama before (many times) that you should advise which catalogue and the year of the catalogue that you are using for pricing, i.e. 2013 Scott.
There's not an unlimited number of characters allowed in a listing's heading, but this information can be provided in the description section for the lot.
Liz
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I agree with Liz. Adding catalog years and values in the titles will only mess up searches. If listing catalog values, they are best placed in the item description.
Another factor is what exactly is the catalog value of a stamp? One must have the exact condition and then using the catalog adjust the value accordingly. A stamp that catalogs for $5.00 in Scott means a stamp in VERY FINE condition. The same stamp in average condition does not have a catalog value of $5.00. Stating that the average condition stamp has a catalog value of $5.00 would be incorrect and misleading. Best to not put a catalog value. Also best not to but a condition or descriptors such as "great stamp", "wonderful", etc. Let the person looking at the item listing make that decision, and let the buyer make the decision as to whether or not the asking price is what the buyer is willing to pay.
Also, there are only 80 spaces allowed in the Title field.
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And what if the item is not listed in a catalogue or has no catalogue value, only a market value ?
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Michael numbers said:
"One must have the exact condition and then using the catalog adjust the value accordingly. A stamp that catalogs for $5.00 in Scott means a stamp in VERY FINE condition. The same stamp in average condition does not have a catalog value of $5.00. Stating that the average condition stamp has a catalog value of $5.00 would be incorrect and misleading. Best to not put a catalog value."
I would agree that an accurate description is more important than simply listing a catalogue value; however, I too encourage listing the Catalogue, Year, and value of any listed stamp because this sets, for the buyer, a possible maximum they would be willing to pay. So if a stamp is average vs. very fine, as Michael noted, then that $5 should not be seen as a price for that stamp, but the absolute maximum the buyer should expect to pay, even though it isn't of the condition listed for that value; buyers make their decision to buy based on more than condition, IMHO.
Also, a contemporary CV can alert the buyer to the changing value of a stamp, in either direction. I have used Scott 2009 until this past year, when I updated to Scott 2012 and found that some of those values DECREASED over time; buyers without a newer catalogue would not know this absent your listing.
Peter
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07:35:10am
What Peter said - and also, with regard to condition:
After a certain time period (no rhyme or reason here, but usually around 1940), Scott values mint stamps ONLY in MNH condition. Yet, as there is no value given for hinged stamps, there is nothing to go by to establish a benchmark other than this NH value. Therefore, almost everybody simply uses the Scott cv regardless. When I do so, I factor in -25% when computing my selling price, but many Sellers simply use the NH value. Also, for the time period where the values are for hinged stamps, Scott often gives no value for MNH stamps (I usually add 25% here, although NH values, when given, are generally much more than that).
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Yes, Yes, all good thoughts, but a simple title such as: "Canada 12345 used 2010 SCV $21.50" is pretty much all that is needed. The title can KISS and give all of the pertinent information without having to click on the listing and read the description. Since we all know that Scott lists the value of stamps in VF condition, plus we all know that 99.99% of the lots on SOR sell for a small percentage of the SCV, I would surmise that most sellers use SCV only as a guideline for pricing their stamp listings.
Just MHO of course,
Mike
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09:37:38am
Don't get me wrong, Mike. I totally agree with your post. My comment was merely an observation re the use of the term "catalog value" and how, despite our best efforts, is often misleading and incorrect (but we are stuck with what we have since there is really no viable alternative).
Fun discussion, and no mention of politics or religion! (BTW, while that emote is supposed to say "rock on," to me, an alum of the University of Texas at Austin, it says "hook'em horns!")
Hook 'em
-Bobby-
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Hi Bobby,
Re: MH vs MNH values in Scott.
I go back and forth between Scott and Michel, but tend to prefer Michel for organizing my collection. For most countries, the Michel catalog values for unused stamps up to around 1920 are in MH condition. With few exceptions, values are for MNH after 1920. This is a notable difference between the catlaogs and in part explains the higher valuations in Michel. Michel values MH stamps from 1920 to 1945 at 40-60% of the values for MNH.
Well, not really a contribution to the question of auction categories, but this where the discussion took us 
Arno
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"Canada 12345 used 2010 SCV $21.50"
If you are searching for a stamp with catalog number 2010, all listings with 2010 in the title will appear. Just saying...
gig 'em - just saying...
t
e
a
s
i
p
(No, I'm not either of them, but I have two nieces who are not of the orange.)
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When I post items in the auction more often than not I leave off the CV. I figure it this way, if the buyer wants it let him or her determine the value of the item they are buying.
Some of my pet peeves as a buyer:
Listing a US stamp showing a Scotts 2009 or earlier catalog value for comparison only prompts me to skip the rest of the seller's items in the auction due to their inflated expectations. However, the ultimate value of a stamp is based on condition. Sellers not bothering to note stamp faults in the listing probably shouldn't sell stamps.
As for the search functionality it is in my humble opinion all but useless.
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Michael:
I, too, am frustrated with the "search" button, but I blame the sellers (at large) because of the way they describe their auction lots. For example. I search for "stamps on stamps", but seldom hit the jackpot; similarly, when looking for
"Churchill" the cigar smoker, etc.
Sellers refuse to make it easy for me and I enjoy the challenge.
I recommend you hang in there.
John Derry
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I've publicly said that I don't think adding new country categories would be in the interest of this site, as it can never appease everyone's needs. However, I would argue that the general category "Topicals" is almost farcical as it is now. At least, there should be a minimum number of actual topical categories within it.
Grouping stamps of Winston Churchill, dogs, airplanes, insects, and space into a general "Topicals" category makes no sense. What is not topical in stamp collecting? Every stamp I look at has at least one potential "topic," even the Boer War cancel group I sold here recently (topics could be Military related, cancel study, etc.).Oftentimes, it isn't feasible to use the title alone to include the topic adequately, especially if sellers are going to start putting "Scott 2012 CV $xx.xx" in the title.
I'll be happy to work on any study group here to come up with such a list for the membership to consider.
Cheers,
Peter
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09:03:54am
Probably going to surprise some folk considering my position on this "topic" of discussion, but I agree with Peter. Topicals constitute a sizable portion of the collecting interests of the membership, and with over 650 postings as of this morning, a sizable portion of the Auction listings as well. Just as we divide Europe in general groupings, I believe the same should be done with Topicals. As Peter points out, there are almost as many topics as there are collectors, but they can be grouped into 5 general areas: flora, fauna, people, transportation, and other. If it later turns out that “other†has a disproportionate number of posts (say “maps†is more popular than I realize), a further branching can happen.
Maybe a study group would be appropriate here, although I believe that if such a division is possible, the general categories can be rationally deduced without that necessity - just initiate a thread in the discussion board category under “Topical.â€
Hook 'em.
-Bobby
(and for all you Aggies out there, here's to "Johnny football") 
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You're right, Bobby; keep it simple. We can start with those five and see how it works out. Good idea.
We'll agree to disagree at College Football time though.
Go Irish!
Peter
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so, what I hear is that you'd like the topical section expanded by four new ones, the existing one remaining as the catch-all for all else, correct?
if that's correct, i'll first check with Tim to see if it's possible. then, do you two want to engage a few others to see if that is consensus? And will you serve as the funnel for future comments on this section?
David the auctioneer
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02:36:21pm
Fine with me, and I believe I speak for Peter also. Thanks!
Bobby
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David,
If you read this thread from the top you will see that it is far from consensus that we need additional auction categories. And, if we should expand the number of auction categories, there probably is yet less consensus as to if the category Topicals is the one most deserving expansion. But of course the squeaky, squeaky, squeaky wheel gets the grease. The whole Pandora box of additional categories would have been best left unopened. Having said that, obviously, Fauna and Flora should be one category and instead there has to be a category Organizations. You MUST understand that if this is not changed the system is plain simply UNUSABLE for a hobby collector selling a few extras once in a while.
Very sound arguments have been advanced to stop over-improving the whole auction system. Our auction advanced from an amateurish yet likeable member-to-member service to an ambitious competitor to commercial websites. Is this the vision for Stamporama? A BidStart clone?
I am probably one of the few who believes that Stamporama is not primarily an auction platform, but an APS affiliate stamp club. But the number of daily discussions surrounding every aspect of our auction (invoicing, paypal, categories .. ) suggests otherwise.
My worthless two cents,
Arno
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06:24:48pm
I think your 2 cents are well worth the saying, Arno. I certainly do not want to turn Stamporama into anything other than what it has been since its inception, a "Stamp Club." I do not think a few extra categories for a burgeoning Topical section is a great change, but if it is a pathway to the "slippery slope," then I can most certainly be dissuaded from its need. As to the sub-categories, my ideas were just suggestions because those were the themes I saw most often when looking over the board.
Maybe we could establish some sort of benchmark for determining the need to subdivide existing categories? Perhaps when the number of auctions in a category reaches a certain level?
I love the auction board, but the majority of my time on SOR is in the discussion section. In fact, if we (read "Tim" since he will do all the work) can get a chat board up and running, I will have to start taking my meals in front of a keyboard.
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Although we no longer have pennies in our monetary system,
I do have two British coppers that I'll throw in the pot with
Arno and Bobby.
Postage stamp categories are, indeed, Pandora's box
by any other name.
John Derry
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"Maybe we could establish some sort of benchmark for determining the need to subdivide existing categories? Perhaps when the number of auctions in a category reaches a certain level?"
I agree with that statement. SOR Auction could create a couple hundred new categories. However, if there is only one or two stamps listed in each, then it is too diluted, and will not be effective.
Regarding sales on the site and the desire for SOR to remain a "club"... well, if you go to club meetings, there is plenty of selling, auctioning, swapping and trading of stamps going on at those too. One of the big money makers for the APS (of which SOR is an affiliate) is the Sales Division. SOR was formed to help provide a means for members to obtain stamps for their collections. Maybe it's time to take a look at the cost of running the SOR web site, and see what can the sales do to help eliminate the donation of one person to support the web site. If this is a club, shouldn't the members be helping to pay to keep it running, and not just one person? Low commission on sales could help do that. Also, maybe if there are additional funds raised than needed to run the web site, the SOR membership could decide to do philatelic outreach to the young ones or provide funding to the APS for its youth programs. Just some ideas off the top of my head. Think of the positive that can come of the sales component, and not remain locked on the negatives and the past.
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05:22:10am
In my opinion, as a frequent bidder, the seller is wasting his time posting the Scott or other catalog "Listing", Unless the stamp is pristine and well centered it is not going to be in the condition that various catalogs use as their standard.
Note, I again use the word "listing" and my previous comments about discounting from the "listed value" explain that well enough. If the average stamp entered into the auction had such an inflated "value" then it would be foolish for a seller to accept anything more then marginally less.
The usual 15% or 20% actual transaction at closing indicates that the stamp is not now or ever will approach that listed value. But for those who have been doing that for years, enjoy it, but as for me I seldom use those numbers as a guide for my purchases.
Even the usual SC number is almost a waste of time. The year of issue, now that is helpful to me, since it ought to be almost always the same regardless of the catalog being used.
As for charging a fee, that is an interesting idea, although it goes against the grain of my cheap skinflint heart.
Two simple possibilities arise.
A small membership fee.
A transaction fee.
The problems then arise as to who collects the fees and how are they safeguarded and accounted for. What about foreign members who do not have easy access to US Dollars ?
I have no idea as to what it costs to put this site together without a lot of pop-up advertising. An overall membership fee would certainly whittle down the number of casual members who seldom spend any serious time here.
Trustees ?
A treasurer ?
An election of a board of directors ?
A can or worms open at both ends?
A Puzzlement
ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ºº°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ºº°`°º¤ø
When I was a boy
World was a better spot.
What was so, was so,
What was not, was not.
Now I am a man;
World have changed a lot.
Some things, nearly so,
Others, nearly not!!!
There are times I almost think
I am not sure of what,
I absolutely know.
Very often find confusion
In conclusion, I concluded long ago
In my head are many facts that,
As a student, I have studied to procure,
In my head are many facts..
Of which I wish I was more certain, I was sure!
Is a puzzlement
ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ºº°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ºº°`°º¤ø
( Try not to laugh as you visualize me dancing across the keyboard, barefoot, in pantaloons with a naked chest.)
If we knew what it costs Roy over and above his long established "Buck a Cover" business perhaps the 100 to 150 or so active members would be willing to contribute a few dollars each year just for the privilege of being associated with such a fine groups of people.
It sounds like a great idea until I start considering the complexities involved.
Is a puzzlement for sure !
ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ºº°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ºº°`°º¤ø
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Charlie, my thoughts regarding fees were related to sellers paying a small end of sale fee when their items sell. Buyers, and members who do not participate in the auctions, would not pay any fee to be a member of SOR.
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Certainly not to be a wet blanket, but what purpose would these dollars do to help SOR and who would volunteer to get so involved in the task of Treasurer or Bookkeeper? We could hardly get three people to volunteer to be Monitors of the DB, but now we are suggesting to have someone basically be a full time bookkeeper/accountant. And wouldn't we need to Bond anyone involved in handling the funds of SOR, not that we have any dishonest members, but money does funny things to people, just check history. This is all just MHO, of course, but food for thought.
Mike
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IMHO, the introduction of seller fees will change the flavor of this site as a club. It will then introduce the expectation among sellers to "get their money's worth" through selling enhancements, more structured categories, increased shipping and handling costs to defray seller's costs, etc. In short, selling will take predominance, and I don't think that's what folks want here. I, for one, do NOT want this to be another bidStart commercial site.
My 2c worth for the evening,
Peter
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All this talk of charging nominal fees for sold items is not a totally bad idea. I do not know of a stamp club that does not have a support fund. The size of the fund is usually relative to the expenses incurred that need to be paid for. But this is where I am at a loss, what are the expenses we need to cover and how much is really needed. Kind of a mote point to discuss charges until we know what the cost is. Does anyone know how much we would need to raise and what it would be used for????
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We have absolutely no expenses at all. Roy, of Buckacover supplies the computer space needed for SOR, free of charge, which we are certainly thankful for. All others involved in any "official", capacity are all volunteers, so no fees needed there either. There are also other volunteers involved that do a lot of the planning for the changes of the by-laws and such, which just transpired a few months ago.
If the people that suggest these things were to be the ones that had to implement them and continue to run them, there would be many less changes suggested, but that's never the case, is it? Yes, I've been called an old fuddy duddy because I prefer to KISS and meanwhile many say we should change. Should we change like eBay, Startbid, wensy or who. All of those sound like terrible changes to me.
Keep It Simple Sor,
Mike
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"Roy, of Buckacover supplies the computer space needed for SOR, free of charge"
Roy pays for it all by himself, and we are indebted to him for it. It is not free. So, is it right that he alone should bear the total cost?
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"Roy, of Buckacover supplies the computer space needed for SOR, free of charge, which we are certainly thankful for"
Roy has never, as far as I know, asked for any contribution towards the expenses incurred towards the SOR website. I would imagine if he did ask for payment we would have to start charging fees of some sort or we would not have this wonderful site for all of us to enjoy. But until that time, let's not rock the jukebox.
I already know who I would nominate as volunteer treasurer of SOR if we were in a position to ever need one.
Mike
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Roy's deal with SOR has been to supply the server space in return for advertising space, which is seen at the top right of the home page. Roy had been president, and is the person most responsible for our change from paper to electronic existence. What part each of these elements plays in Roy's largesse I don't know.
I make it a point to visit Roy's site religiously; as a cover i have found many wonderful things priced from reasonable to utter bargains.
All that said, we are always looking at "what if"s
David
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I think the time should be spent on fixing the invoicing system not adding additional categories. I find the invoicing very user unfriendly.
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Mike - thanks for clarification on the cost of SOR. Given it is $0, there should be no further discussion required about funding. Our deepest thanks to Roy and all of those who give their valuable time to benefit the general membership and functions of SOR. If I could value this accolade, it would be worth a small fortune. Great job to all. Thanks.
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DSC, that is not what Mike said. He said that at present the cost of SOR is borne entirely by Roy. There is a cost for servers, internet provider and connectivity, space for storage of data and images. As Mike stated, at this time Roy has not seen a need to ask the SOR membership to help with the costs.
I have no problem with what Mike stated about the future. I just think it needs to be understood that there is a cost to run the SOR web site, and that we are freeloaders at the present and until the costs become such that we are asked to help with that.
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Why don't we wait until we reach that bridge before we try to cross it? This whole idea is asinine and not even worthy of discussion. At least IMHO.....
Michael, If you really feel that you are freeloading, why not send your own personal check to Roy, just to soothe your frayed conscience? The rest of us are enjoying the site that Roy provides, without charge, out of the kindness of his heart.
Mike
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
23 Jun 2013
02:55:52pm
I would like to open this topic for discussion.
I find the general Stamp Auction Categories inadequate...confused and unstructured.
Should the categories reflect the current offerings (as it seems to do...but maybe I am wrong) or should it be a Structural System that is systematic, best satisfies the needs of collectors and sellers alike, and allows for simple expansion if needed.
In all cases, it needs to be refined and recast, in my opinion.
The current Auction Category System itself seems to recognize some of its shortcomings.
Example: I collect Middle Eastern Stamps, and I find it deserves its own category (it is currently lumped with Asia and cannot be separated in a sort). What would trigger its being granted equal status?
I also wonder if Europe does not merit its own label (and countries would then ratchet down one level), Latin America and Caribbean deserve separate status, The colonial powers and their colonies deserve setting sub levels..etc..etc..
Now that being said, I remember we had quite a big discussion on Categories over the years, on other forums. A more refined and structured category system, in my opinion, helps doing business.
When sorting, it helps locate items. A hierarchical system with better groupings and more refined levels would be my recommendation.
I was distracted in my efforts to post some items for auction, and in my search for auction items of interest by the current limitations of the existing structure, and the limitations of the sort function.
Should we take a look at it from the bottom up?
I am new here, and I don't wish to create more work just for the sake of my perception of a proper system, or rock the boat (when the boat seems to be sailing well)...so I am asking: what do you think?
rrr...
On a separate question, where do watched items go and how do you retrieve them?
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Categories
The list of items that you are Watching is shown on the Open Lots screen under the Buyers dropdown.
Tim.
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
23 Jun 2013
03:05:42pm
re: Auction Categories
Thanks Tim...Re Watched List: I looked and I have nothing showing...and yet I did put some items on my watch list, so I wonder if I may have missed a step.. I will test just to see where I went wrong.
rrr
PS: Got it... must have made a wrong maneuver. It works! Thanks for the prompt response.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Categories
It has been quite a while since we reviewed the Auction categories, so I'm open to reviewing them. As you think about them keep a couple of things in mind.
1. The Auction is written with a single level of categories. Some sites are more elaborate and break the category structure down in a complex tree structure. I don't want to do that, for many reasons, the largest of which would be the amount of work for me.
2. Picture the Post a New Lot screen and the list of category check boxes that you have to chose from. You don't want to make it to complex so that it is difficult to post a new lot.
3. Picture the Auction Categories screen. You don't want so many categories that this screen goes on forever.
That said, the categories can be placed in any order. They aren't sorted alphabetically, they are ordered by a redetermined sequence number.
So, like rrraphy, I'm interested in your thoughts.
Regards ... Tim.
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer
23 Jun 2013
04:20:51pm
re: Auction Categories
What I have noticed is that when the auction ends it is removed or deleted from the watch list.
Tim what happens to the pictures of a delete auction. I did notice that in the members area that all the picture I have uploaded remain. At some point do I need to delete them also.
Ross
Edit-spelling
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re: Auction Categories
The pictures associated with all auction lots are held on the server. Unsold lots can be relisted and will use the same image files. I have a maintenance program that runs on a regular basis and cleans up very old auction images.
Tim.
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re: Auction Categories
That's good to know about the pic files. I was wondering that myself. It seemed the list of stored image files could get gargantuan in size.
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re: Auction Categories
Doug,
All true about the number of image files. Each image file is tracked in the database so we know what it relates to so we know when it is appropriate to delete it.
Regards ... Tim
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
24 Jun 2013
06:39:21pm
re: Auction Categories
Keeping in mind Tim's request of staying in a single layer, and keeping the size of the list under some constraints, for size reasons, I am suggesting the following minor changes in the Category List.
1. USA and Territories (cat name change) (If you use the Scott specialty catalog as a guideline, UN could go there...deleting one existing layer with just a few items)
2. Add PORTUGAL and COLONIES
3. Add (Former) EAST EUROPE
Split
4. ASIA
5. MIDDLE EAST
Split
6. LATIN AMERICA
7. CARIBBEANS
I can see the need, down the road, for possibly splitting the other European Colonial Empires (Italy & Col) (Spain & Col) (Belgium & Col), but only if requested and supported by the volume of auction items.
For now, I am just throwing these simple changes for perusal and comments. What do you think?
I also suggest that we establish a Second Layer, FOR DEFINITION PURPOSES. as people may be confused by the first layer, (or am I assuming too little/much) (and List alphabetically in this second layer)
But we should at least keep it in mind, should we wish to go to a hierarchical structure one day (2 layers?).
I wonder if there is a way to display the total number of items currently in the Auction Categories, at the top of each category (country or area), when sorted on it.
Trying hard not to get carried away. No point in just creating more work ...so your suggestions are requested.
These are just mine .
Rrr...
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re: Auction Categories
When you say you'd like to see the total number of auction category, do you mean once you go into the auction category you'd like to see the total in the category displayed ?
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
24 Jun 2013
07:17:29pm
re: Auction Categories
Yes, the number of items. a running total.
For example on a keyword search (France) what are the number of items listed:
Total.
Closing in 24 hours
New (Added in last 24 hours?)
This would save a lot of time, especially if the number is shown at the top of the page.
rrr....
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re: Auction Categories
Rrr,
I've gotcha (I think) on this one.
Considering that I have a limitation on the the number of category levels, do you thing that offering he concept of tags would help?
Regards ... Tim
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
24 Jun 2013
07:50:08pm
re: Auction Categories
Webmaster (Tim Auld):
I respectfully request we defer any action on this request until the Auctioneer (David Teisler) weighs in.
My experience tells me he has to be a part of resolving this issue.
As a buyer, I am not interested in more categories, please keep it simple.
John Derry
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re: Auction Categories
Hi John,
You can relax on this one. This thread, as I'm sure Rrr will agree, is to collect ideas. David is our Auctioneer and I know when he feels it appropriate, he will join the discussion.
Regards ... Tim
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re: Auction Categories
I did write elsewhere but it hasn't been picked up yet.
So as this thread is 'hot' I'll have another pop.
Just like on the discussion board, except for the USA, there is no section for Cinderellas.
Could this be rectified ? In both areas ?
Without them it makes posting and selling very difficult about that area of Philately.
Any thoughts?
Londonbus1
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re: Auction Categories
Just to underline my point, member Martin has just posted a question about Australian Cinderellas in the USA Discussion section !!
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
25 Jun 2013
07:01:49am
re: Auction Categories
" .... You don't want to make it to complex so that it is difficult to post a new lot. ...."
Or difficult to view lots that have been listed.
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Auctions
re: Auction Categories
Michael, I couldn't find Martin's post about an Australian Cinderella. Can you supply the URL just so i can see.
As to developing categories in the auction and DB for Cinderellas, I'm not vehemently opposed to either, but until your arrival, there were only four of us who ever even knowingly touched a Cinderella: another Mike, from Florida; Liz, up Salt Spring Island way; Kathy, who hasn't participated much in the last several years; and me. Lee occasionally posts some oddities in the auction on my behalf. And Gene added one this week. Pretty sparse pickings. We used to be blessed with the presence of Anne Mette Heindorff, who's Danish seal collection and knowledge were second probably to none (well, maybe to Paaby's), but she's left us far poorer.
I don't want to be adding categories in either forum if there isn't some critical mass. And, with the participation levels we see now in both media, I don't quite see it.
I am not against Cinderellas; far from it. I've added a couple of short articles on them here, and am fairly active in a couple of seal areas.
A number of us continue to talk about revising our categories (the DB sections underwent a major overhaul not long ago; and enormous energy went into what you see now).
I say all this so you will know we're not deaf to your entreaties. We're discussing it.
David
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10:52:49am
Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Categories
Here's the URL David
http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=7077#44914
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
25 Jun 2013
10:55:42am
re: Auction Categories
If sellers would title their auctions more precisely, there would be no need for any renaming or re-categorization. The "Search" by "key word" function is fast, accurate and complete if the "key word" is in the title. There is ample room to include a lot of information in the title (more so than eBay) and if a seller lists a "Cinderella" with "Cinderella" in the title, a search" will find it. Same with "Portuguese" for Portuguese colonies or “colonies†for any colonial possession.
I think if we would spend our time educating Sellers on how to better title auctions and Buyers on how to use the Search function, this entire discussion would be academic.
Just an opinion...
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re: Auction Categories
I'm with Dryer and Bobby on this one. KISS!!!
Mike
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01:34:30pm
re: Auction Categories
This may surprise my friends from bidStart, as I was one of the biggest proponents of more relevant categories for selling over there, but ... I'm with Bobby and Mike here too. This is not a commercial sales site and I agree, a well titled item is sufficient for what we can do here. I said in another post that category specialization will never please everyone; each collector will have a specific area that they feel is not sufficiently represented, as we all "fly speck" and micro-organize what we have.
Giving his 2c worth,
Peter
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
25 Jun 2013
04:09:06pm
re: Auction Categories
Well said, Peter. Stamporama has been discussing stamp categories since its inception
and periodically modifying same. It's in our club's DNA.
My personal book library has two categories, fiction and non-fiction. My public library
uses the Dewey decimal system to categorize its inventory and, apparently,
an infinite number of categories is still not enough to slot all its books.
As repeatedly suggested, an aptly described auction lot and use of the "search" tool should help members
such as myself who are too easily led astray by electronic bells and whistles.
John Derry (micro-organizer)
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re: Auction Categories
Count me in as a proponent for fewer categories and better titles with search terms.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
26 Jun 2013
11:10:27am
re: Auction Categories
".... I think if we would spend our time educating Sellers on how to better title auctions and Buyers on how to use the Search function, this entire discussion would be academic. ...."
Hear! Hear!
Came the roar from the back benches along with stomping of feet and thumping of thick frosty mugs.
And a few sellers might just spend a little time getting the country right for the items they list.
A few, not a lot, but sometimes far enough from accurate to cause me to choke on the swill we serve here in coffee mugs.
I usually laugh and figure someone was posting lots long past his, or her bedtime.
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12:06:19pm
re: Auction Categories
Even at bidStart, and with experienced long time sellers (such as some here now!), with all those categories and subcategories, etc. ... I've found listings in the wrong category, but rarely was the country in the title inconsistent with the image. For example, one seller had about 50 stamps showing German stamp images, with a title "Germany" followed by the Scott number, any topical description, condition, etc., BUT all 50 were listed in a search I did under British Commonwealth! Now, I know the British Empire was vast and they had terrific aspirations for extending it, but Germany? LOL!
A simple mistake from bulk uploading a bunch of Brit Comm stamps and using the same category template for the German stamps. But it makes the point: Attention to the title is the key in searches, not categories, IMHO.
Stay searchable, my friends!
Peter
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re: Auction Categories
I have done that on BS. I comes from using the "List Similar" function. When you use that, it goes directly to the listing page. It should take you to the category page to verify that it is still the same. It is the logic in the programming using the "similar", meaning a presumption that if it was a stamp from the Bahamas that was last listed, that the next stamp to be listed will be from the Bahamas.
I guess that's a change that should be requested over there.
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
27 Jun 2013
12:34:06pm
re: Auction Categories
For the proponents of "KISS" why have any category at all?
The sort capability does it all!
A category system forces order, just like assigned fields (which is another one of my mantra calls). Imagine searching through your Scott catalog for the British Colonies without an Alphabetical listing!
I think a reasonable level of categories is mandatory. Now let us define what is the MINIMUM set that most find reasonable....realizing that it will be different for everyone, and we will never please everyone. Why a separate US and a Canada categories, and not a North America? Because many here collect these areas, and would like the two separately. Same for the rest!
So reviewing the options:
1.Simplest: No categories...zero Let us rely on the sort capability
2.Next: Regional Breakdown (as we want to define regions and groupings)
3.Next: Add the major collecting areas (of interest to people here), no countries
4.Next: A systematic system based on pure logic. Including Countries under regions.
5.Next: A One dimensional system that prints on one page (My maximum list size)..custom combination of the above
6.Next: A 2-layered System, with hierarchical levels
7.Finally a multi-layered system
So I am just suggesting we take a look at the current categories, and modify them as makes sense for the majority here. Everyone agrees that we are currently somewhere in a version of #5 above...but take a close look...is it adequate? What would you remove? Add?
On the sort capability, it would work fine if we could force a number of assigned fields to all listings..ie they must be included. At minimum for me is product type (stamp, cover, fdc, cards, s/s, etc) country name, date of issue, cat(define which one) Cat#, condition (MNH, Unused (M),used, defects), and price. But many of these could disappear if you used categories...I have highlighted in bold my minimum set.
But the sort option fails miserably when people use their own notations, spelling, abbreviations etc..Think about US, USA, U.S., United States, etc.. it is a good example of why sorts fail...and I am not even including typos (spell for me Tajikstan), so this is the reason above all for a DEFINED category system and ASSIGNED fields, and CLICKABLE items.
I can work the current system, any system...but I am suggesting that we should always seek to improve it (my goal), if it is not a burden to implement and if it does not unnecessarily complicate what we have.
rrr...
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
27 Jun 2013
12:42:13pm
re: Auction Categories
to cdj1122 Quote: re: Auction Categories
".... I think if we would spend our time educating Sellers on how to better title auctions and Buyers on how to use the Search function, this entire discussion would be academic. ...."
And a few sellers might just spend a little time getting the country right for the items they list.
A few, not a lot, but sometimes far enough from accurate to cause me to choke on the swill we serve here in coffee mugs.
I usually laugh and figure someone was posting lots long past his, or her bedtime."
As a buyer, I would like a simple way to communicate back to the seller to point any listing errors. I was looking for a link... like a contact the seller clickable link to click on and send an Instant message or email. I could not find it. I always make a point of signalling errors when I spot them, but it must be a simple step, or I won't do it. Am I missing something here?
rrr....
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
27 Jun 2013
01:02:09pm
re: Auction Categories
More on: "But the sort option fails miserably when people use their own notations, spelling, abbreviations etc..Think about US, USA, U.S., United States, etc.. it is a good example of why sorts fail...and I am not even including typos (spell for me Tajikstan), so this is the reason above all for a DEFINED category system and ASSIGNED fields, and CLICKABLE items."
One of the biggest problem I encounter is sorting on category number...
As an example say USA Scott # 1955
People when listing always abbreviate. A range 1950-1959, 1950-59, 1950-9, year 1955 (often abbreviated to 55), my inventory number A-1955, all may cause failure when you search on key words.
Imagine the problem for low numbers (1-100). Now you add compounding effects, all of the above, especially abbreviated ranges, plus number of stamps...etc.... So, how would you handle this issue? I find I HAVE to work from a category system, a COUNTRY basis first...(USA here) then scan the list.
rrr....
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
27 Jun 2013
01:10:25pm
re: Auction Categories
Ralph:
I don't think you are missing anything here.. I find your ideas and your zeal refreshing.
Some of it may be misplaced.
We are a stamp club, not a profit-motivated, time, motion and energy efficient entity
in pursuit of Swiss-watch operation. I see no ground-swell of enthusiasm for reconstructing
the auction board system of categories. It is the club's proverbial bone that one's dog gnaws on.
I am constantly prowling around the auction board. The errors and omissions I note are part
and parcel of what makes Stamporama an amateur stamp club and I like it that way. It's comforting.
If Stamporama's website was bought out by some commercial postage-stamp company, your suggestions
would be imposed, not proposed. I wouldn't be comfortable with that.
My personal opinion as an ordinary member of Stamporama is that stamp-selling members have
a disproportionate amount of influence on our webmaster, although he may not agree with me.
Submitted for information, not disparagement,
John Derry
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re: Auction Categories
I second that John.
There are probably as many reasons for joining SOR as there are ways to collect stamps. Suggestions for improvement seem to always be welcome at SOR even if the only results are a friendly debate.
Like the discussion board the auction draws a lot of attention from perspective members as well as keeping the current members interested.
Ralph if you were here a few months ago you would have experienced the slow and often emotional process of implementing changes at SOR.
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re: Auction Categories
The one thing I like about the auction part of the site is the simple catagory listings. I would like to see it stay the way it is now.
If all sellers would title there lots starting with the Country Name, then Cat Number and which Cat, eg. Scott, Stanly Gibbons, etc. and the the condition, eg. Mint Never Hinged, Mint Hinged, Used, etc.
Doug
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A reminder Stamporama is not an outlet to sell old collections, however, the club is here to assist you in discovering what you have and learn to enjoy the hobby of stamp collecting.
Let's enjoy collecting before we worry about selling. I think (my opinion) the committee has done an outstanding job defining categories and should be left well enough alone.......Perry
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"I say all this so you will know we're not deaf to your entreaties. We're discussing it."
Not a problem at all. In the auctions I can get around it by posting in the country and 'Other' Philatelic items.
But is it OK to post in the Discussion area, as Martin did, in the USA section about Non-USA Cinderellas ?? It could be misleading.
Londonbus1
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re: Auction Categories
Michael, yes, OR any other category you deem most appropriate.
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If all sellers would title there lots starting with the Country Name, then Cat Number and which Cat, eg. Scott, Stanley Gibbons, etc. and the the condition, eg. Mint Never Hinged, Mint Hinged, Used, etc
Doug,
Yes, that and the catalog value. Some of us don't even look at lots that don't have some sort of CV listed.
Mike
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12:39:51am
Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Categories
The catalogue value does not mean a thing unless a viewer knows which catalogue and the year of the catalogue publication the seller is using for valuation purposes. Prices listed in catalogues change from year to year and what might have been a catalogue pricing of say $2.00 four years ago may be listed at 20 cents in the current catalogue. The title of each auction lot is limited by a certain number of characters.
If you are going to show catalogue values in your auction listings it has been stated here on Stamporama before (many times) that you should advise which catalogue and the year of the catalogue that you are using for pricing, i.e. 2013 Scott.
There's not an unlimited number of characters allowed in a listing's heading, but this information can be provided in the description section for the lot.
Liz
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I agree with Liz. Adding catalog years and values in the titles will only mess up searches. If listing catalog values, they are best placed in the item description.
Another factor is what exactly is the catalog value of a stamp? One must have the exact condition and then using the catalog adjust the value accordingly. A stamp that catalogs for $5.00 in Scott means a stamp in VERY FINE condition. The same stamp in average condition does not have a catalog value of $5.00. Stating that the average condition stamp has a catalog value of $5.00 would be incorrect and misleading. Best to not put a catalog value. Also best not to but a condition or descriptors such as "great stamp", "wonderful", etc. Let the person looking at the item listing make that decision, and let the buyer make the decision as to whether or not the asking price is what the buyer is willing to pay.
Also, there are only 80 spaces allowed in the Title field.
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re: Auction Categories
And what if the item is not listed in a catalogue or has no catalogue value, only a market value ?
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06:24:32am
re: Auction Categories
Michael numbers said:
"One must have the exact condition and then using the catalog adjust the value accordingly. A stamp that catalogs for $5.00 in Scott means a stamp in VERY FINE condition. The same stamp in average condition does not have a catalog value of $5.00. Stating that the average condition stamp has a catalog value of $5.00 would be incorrect and misleading. Best to not put a catalog value."
I would agree that an accurate description is more important than simply listing a catalogue value; however, I too encourage listing the Catalogue, Year, and value of any listed stamp because this sets, for the buyer, a possible maximum they would be willing to pay. So if a stamp is average vs. very fine, as Michael noted, then that $5 should not be seen as a price for that stamp, but the absolute maximum the buyer should expect to pay, even though it isn't of the condition listed for that value; buyers make their decision to buy based on more than condition, IMHO.
Also, a contemporary CV can alert the buyer to the changing value of a stamp, in either direction. I have used Scott 2009 until this past year, when I updated to Scott 2012 and found that some of those values DECREASED over time; buyers without a newer catalogue would not know this absent your listing.
Peter
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
05 Jul 2013
07:35:10am
re: Auction Categories
What Peter said - and also, with regard to condition:
After a certain time period (no rhyme or reason here, but usually around 1940), Scott values mint stamps ONLY in MNH condition. Yet, as there is no value given for hinged stamps, there is nothing to go by to establish a benchmark other than this NH value. Therefore, almost everybody simply uses the Scott cv regardless. When I do so, I factor in -25% when computing my selling price, but many Sellers simply use the NH value. Also, for the time period where the values are for hinged stamps, Scott often gives no value for MNH stamps (I usually add 25% here, although NH values, when given, are generally much more than that).
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re: Auction Categories
Yes, Yes, all good thoughts, but a simple title such as: "Canada 12345 used 2010 SCV $21.50" is pretty much all that is needed. The title can KISS and give all of the pertinent information without having to click on the listing and read the description. Since we all know that Scott lists the value of stamps in VF condition, plus we all know that 99.99% of the lots on SOR sell for a small percentage of the SCV, I would surmise that most sellers use SCV only as a guideline for pricing their stamp listings.
Just MHO of course,
Mike
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
05 Jul 2013
09:37:38am
re: Auction Categories
Don't get me wrong, Mike. I totally agree with your post. My comment was merely an observation re the use of the term "catalog value" and how, despite our best efforts, is often misleading and incorrect (but we are stuck with what we have since there is really no viable alternative).
Fun discussion, and no mention of politics or religion! (BTW, while that emote is supposed to say "rock on," to me, an alum of the University of Texas at Austin, it says "hook'em horns!")
Hook 'em
-Bobby-
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re: Auction Categories
Hi Bobby,
Re: MH vs MNH values in Scott.
I go back and forth between Scott and Michel, but tend to prefer Michel for organizing my collection. For most countries, the Michel catalog values for unused stamps up to around 1920 are in MH condition. With few exceptions, values are for MNH after 1920. This is a notable difference between the catlaogs and in part explains the higher valuations in Michel. Michel values MH stamps from 1920 to 1945 at 40-60% of the values for MNH.
Well, not really a contribution to the question of auction categories, but this where the discussion took us
Arno
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re: Auction Categories
"Canada 12345 used 2010 SCV $21.50"
If you are searching for a stamp with catalog number 2010, all listings with 2010 in the title will appear. Just saying...
gig 'em - just saying...
t
e
a
s
i
p
(No, I'm not either of them, but I have two nieces who are not of the orange.)
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re: Auction Categories
When I post items in the auction more often than not I leave off the CV. I figure it this way, if the buyer wants it let him or her determine the value of the item they are buying.
Some of my pet peeves as a buyer:
Listing a US stamp showing a Scotts 2009 or earlier catalog value for comparison only prompts me to skip the rest of the seller's items in the auction due to their inflated expectations. However, the ultimate value of a stamp is based on condition. Sellers not bothering to note stamp faults in the listing probably shouldn't sell stamps.
As for the search functionality it is in my humble opinion all but useless.
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
06 Jul 2013
01:24:04am
re: Auction Categories
Michael:
I, too, am frustrated with the "search" button, but I blame the sellers (at large) because of the way they describe their auction lots. For example. I search for "stamps on stamps", but seldom hit the jackpot; similarly, when looking for
"Churchill" the cigar smoker, etc.
Sellers refuse to make it easy for me and I enjoy the challenge.
I recommend you hang in there.
John Derry
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07:25:47am
re: Auction Categories
I've publicly said that I don't think adding new country categories would be in the interest of this site, as it can never appease everyone's needs. However, I would argue that the general category "Topicals" is almost farcical as it is now. At least, there should be a minimum number of actual topical categories within it.
Grouping stamps of Winston Churchill, dogs, airplanes, insects, and space into a general "Topicals" category makes no sense. What is not topical in stamp collecting? Every stamp I look at has at least one potential "topic," even the Boer War cancel group I sold here recently (topics could be Military related, cancel study, etc.).Oftentimes, it isn't feasible to use the title alone to include the topic adequately, especially if sellers are going to start putting "Scott 2012 CV $xx.xx" in the title.
I'll be happy to work on any study group here to come up with such a list for the membership to consider.
Cheers,
Peter
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
06 Jul 2013
09:03:54am
re: Auction Categories
Probably going to surprise some folk considering my position on this "topic" of discussion, but I agree with Peter. Topicals constitute a sizable portion of the collecting interests of the membership, and with over 650 postings as of this morning, a sizable portion of the Auction listings as well. Just as we divide Europe in general groupings, I believe the same should be done with Topicals. As Peter points out, there are almost as many topics as there are collectors, but they can be grouped into 5 general areas: flora, fauna, people, transportation, and other. If it later turns out that “other†has a disproportionate number of posts (say “maps†is more popular than I realize), a further branching can happen.
Maybe a study group would be appropriate here, although I believe that if such a division is possible, the general categories can be rationally deduced without that necessity - just initiate a thread in the discussion board category under “Topical.â€
Hook 'em.
-Bobby
(and for all you Aggies out there, here's to "Johnny football")
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09:11:06am
re: Auction Categories
You're right, Bobby; keep it simple. We can start with those five and see how it works out. Good idea.
We'll agree to disagree at College Football time though.
Go Irish!
Peter
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re: Auction Categories
so, what I hear is that you'd like the topical section expanded by four new ones, the existing one remaining as the catch-all for all else, correct?
if that's correct, i'll first check with Tim to see if it's possible. then, do you two want to engage a few others to see if that is consensus? And will you serve as the funnel for future comments on this section?
David the auctioneer
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
06 Jul 2013
02:36:21pm
re: Auction Categories
Fine with me, and I believe I speak for Peter also. Thanks!
Bobby
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re: Auction Categories
David,
If you read this thread from the top you will see that it is far from consensus that we need additional auction categories. And, if we should expand the number of auction categories, there probably is yet less consensus as to if the category Topicals is the one most deserving expansion. But of course the squeaky, squeaky, squeaky wheel gets the grease. The whole Pandora box of additional categories would have been best left unopened. Having said that, obviously, Fauna and Flora should be one category and instead there has to be a category Organizations. You MUST understand that if this is not changed the system is plain simply UNUSABLE for a hobby collector selling a few extras once in a while.
Very sound arguments have been advanced to stop over-improving the whole auction system. Our auction advanced from an amateurish yet likeable member-to-member service to an ambitious competitor to commercial websites. Is this the vision for Stamporama? A BidStart clone?
I am probably one of the few who believes that Stamporama is not primarily an auction platform, but an APS affiliate stamp club. But the number of daily discussions surrounding every aspect of our auction (invoicing, paypal, categories .. ) suggests otherwise.
My worthless two cents,
Arno
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
06 Jul 2013
06:24:48pm
re: Auction Categories
I think your 2 cents are well worth the saying, Arno. I certainly do not want to turn Stamporama into anything other than what it has been since its inception, a "Stamp Club." I do not think a few extra categories for a burgeoning Topical section is a great change, but if it is a pathway to the "slippery slope," then I can most certainly be dissuaded from its need. As to the sub-categories, my ideas were just suggestions because those were the themes I saw most often when looking over the board.
Maybe we could establish some sort of benchmark for determining the need to subdivide existing categories? Perhaps when the number of auctions in a category reaches a certain level?
I love the auction board, but the majority of my time on SOR is in the discussion section. In fact, if we (read "Tim" since he will do all the work) can get a chat board up and running, I will have to start taking my meals in front of a keyboard.
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
06 Jul 2013
10:05:12pm
re: Auction Categories
Although we no longer have pennies in our monetary system,
I do have two British coppers that I'll throw in the pot with
Arno and Bobby.
Postage stamp categories are, indeed, Pandora's box
by any other name.
John Derry
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re: Auction Categories
"Maybe we could establish some sort of benchmark for determining the need to subdivide existing categories? Perhaps when the number of auctions in a category reaches a certain level?"
I agree with that statement. SOR Auction could create a couple hundred new categories. However, if there is only one or two stamps listed in each, then it is too diluted, and will not be effective.
Regarding sales on the site and the desire for SOR to remain a "club"... well, if you go to club meetings, there is plenty of selling, auctioning, swapping and trading of stamps going on at those too. One of the big money makers for the APS (of which SOR is an affiliate) is the Sales Division. SOR was formed to help provide a means for members to obtain stamps for their collections. Maybe it's time to take a look at the cost of running the SOR web site, and see what can the sales do to help eliminate the donation of one person to support the web site. If this is a club, shouldn't the members be helping to pay to keep it running, and not just one person? Low commission on sales could help do that. Also, maybe if there are additional funds raised than needed to run the web site, the SOR membership could decide to do philatelic outreach to the young ones or provide funding to the APS for its youth programs. Just some ideas off the top of my head. Think of the positive that can come of the sales component, and not remain locked on the negatives and the past.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
07 Jul 2013
05:22:10am
re: Auction Categories
In my opinion, as a frequent bidder, the seller is wasting his time posting the Scott or other catalog "Listing", Unless the stamp is pristine and well centered it is not going to be in the condition that various catalogs use as their standard.
Note, I again use the word "listing" and my previous comments about discounting from the "listed value" explain that well enough. If the average stamp entered into the auction had such an inflated "value" then it would be foolish for a seller to accept anything more then marginally less.
The usual 15% or 20% actual transaction at closing indicates that the stamp is not now or ever will approach that listed value. But for those who have been doing that for years, enjoy it, but as for me I seldom use those numbers as a guide for my purchases.
Even the usual SC number is almost a waste of time. The year of issue, now that is helpful to me, since it ought to be almost always the same regardless of the catalog being used.
As for charging a fee, that is an interesting idea, although it goes against the grain of my cheap skinflint heart.
Two simple possibilities arise.
A small membership fee.
A transaction fee.
The problems then arise as to who collects the fees and how are they safeguarded and accounted for. What about foreign members who do not have easy access to US Dollars ?
I have no idea as to what it costs to put this site together without a lot of pop-up advertising. An overall membership fee would certainly whittle down the number of casual members who seldom spend any serious time here.
Trustees ?
A treasurer ?
An election of a board of directors ?
A can or worms open at both ends?
A Puzzlement
ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ºº°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ºº°`°º¤ø
When I was a boy
World was a better spot.
What was so, was so,
What was not, was not.
Now I am a man;
World have changed a lot.
Some things, nearly so,
Others, nearly not!!!
There are times I almost think
I am not sure of what,
I absolutely know.
Very often find confusion
In conclusion, I concluded long ago
In my head are many facts that,
As a student, I have studied to procure,
In my head are many facts..
Of which I wish I was more certain, I was sure!
Is a puzzlement
ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ºº°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ºº°`°º¤ø
( Try not to laugh as you visualize me dancing across the keyboard, barefoot, in pantaloons with a naked chest.)
If we knew what it costs Roy over and above his long established "Buck a Cover" business perhaps the 100 to 150 or so active members would be willing to contribute a few dollars each year just for the privilege of being associated with such a fine groups of people.
It sounds like a great idea until I start considering the complexities involved.
Is a puzzlement for sure !
ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ºº°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ºº°`°º¤ø
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re: Auction Categories
Charlie, my thoughts regarding fees were related to sellers paying a small end of sale fee when their items sell. Buyers, and members who do not participate in the auctions, would not pay any fee to be a member of SOR.
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re: Auction Categories
Certainly not to be a wet blanket, but what purpose would these dollars do to help SOR and who would volunteer to get so involved in the task of Treasurer or Bookkeeper? We could hardly get three people to volunteer to be Monitors of the DB, but now we are suggesting to have someone basically be a full time bookkeeper/accountant. And wouldn't we need to Bond anyone involved in handling the funds of SOR, not that we have any dishonest members, but money does funny things to people, just check history. This is all just MHO, of course, but food for thought.
Mike
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09:57:00pm
re: Auction Categories
IMHO, the introduction of seller fees will change the flavor of this site as a club. It will then introduce the expectation among sellers to "get their money's worth" through selling enhancements, more structured categories, increased shipping and handling costs to defray seller's costs, etc. In short, selling will take predominance, and I don't think that's what folks want here. I, for one, do NOT want this to be another bidStart commercial site.
My 2c worth for the evening,
Peter
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re: Auction Categories
All this talk of charging nominal fees for sold items is not a totally bad idea. I do not know of a stamp club that does not have a support fund. The size of the fund is usually relative to the expenses incurred that need to be paid for. But this is where I am at a loss, what are the expenses we need to cover and how much is really needed. Kind of a mote point to discuss charges until we know what the cost is. Does anyone know how much we would need to raise and what it would be used for????
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re: Auction Categories
We have absolutely no expenses at all. Roy, of Buckacover supplies the computer space needed for SOR, free of charge, which we are certainly thankful for. All others involved in any "official", capacity are all volunteers, so no fees needed there either. There are also other volunteers involved that do a lot of the planning for the changes of the by-laws and such, which just transpired a few months ago.
If the people that suggest these things were to be the ones that had to implement them and continue to run them, there would be many less changes suggested, but that's never the case, is it? Yes, I've been called an old fuddy duddy because I prefer to KISS and meanwhile many say we should change. Should we change like eBay, Startbid, wensy or who. All of those sound like terrible changes to me.
Keep It Simple Sor,
Mike
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re: Auction Categories
"Roy, of Buckacover supplies the computer space needed for SOR, free of charge"
Roy pays for it all by himself, and we are indebted to him for it. It is not free. So, is it right that he alone should bear the total cost?
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"Roy, of Buckacover supplies the computer space needed for SOR, free of charge, which we are certainly thankful for"
Roy has never, as far as I know, asked for any contribution towards the expenses incurred towards the SOR website. I would imagine if he did ask for payment we would have to start charging fees of some sort or we would not have this wonderful site for all of us to enjoy. But until that time, let's not rock the jukebox.
I already know who I would nominate as volunteer treasurer of SOR if we were in a position to ever need one.
Mike
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re: Auction Categories
Roy's deal with SOR has been to supply the server space in return for advertising space, which is seen at the top right of the home page. Roy had been president, and is the person most responsible for our change from paper to electronic existence. What part each of these elements plays in Roy's largesse I don't know.
I make it a point to visit Roy's site religiously; as a cover i have found many wonderful things priced from reasonable to utter bargains.
All that said, we are always looking at "what if"s
David
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer
08 Jul 2013
01:01:26pm
re: Auction Categories
I think the time should be spent on fixing the invoicing system not adding additional categories. I find the invoicing very user unfriendly.
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re: Auction Categories
Mike - thanks for clarification on the cost of SOR. Given it is $0, there should be no further discussion required about funding. Our deepest thanks to Roy and all of those who give their valuable time to benefit the general membership and functions of SOR. If I could value this accolade, it would be worth a small fortune. Great job to all. Thanks.
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re: Auction Categories
DSC, that is not what Mike said. He said that at present the cost of SOR is borne entirely by Roy. There is a cost for servers, internet provider and connectivity, space for storage of data and images. As Mike stated, at this time Roy has not seen a need to ask the SOR membership to help with the costs.
I have no problem with what Mike stated about the future. I just think it needs to be understood that there is a cost to run the SOR web site, and that we are freeloaders at the present and until the costs become such that we are asked to help with that.
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re: Auction Categories
Why don't we wait until we reach that bridge before we try to cross it? This whole idea is asinine and not even worthy of discussion. At least IMHO.....
Michael, If you really feel that you are freeloading, why not send your own personal check to Roy, just to soothe your frayed conscience? The rest of us are enjoying the site that Roy provides, without charge, out of the kindness of his heart.
Mike
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