Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Yeah, to each their own, as they say. I really don't see Venezuela as a terrorist country (though I could be wrong). Somalia is not a terrorist country either, in my mind. Iran on the other hand, hits the nail on the head (dare I say Hezbollah?).
Even so I would not refuse to collect Iran solely because the current administration has terroristic leadership. I refuse because I just don't feel like expanding my already overloaded collecting goals.
To me stamps are history. With history you take the good with the bad, and try to learn from others' mistakes.
Here is a military dictator from Panama--a relatively benign one named Omar Torrijos. In a few years he will die under mysterious circumstances and one of his favored generals will win the ensuing power struggle, bringing darkness and terror to Panama.
Thankfully the successor, Manuel Antonio Noriega, had a bit of an image problem due to extreme acne issues. He was called "cara de piña" or "pineaple face". I suspect this is why no postage stamps were issued with his likeness during his reign of terror.
Even if there had been stamps with his likeness made, I would still collect the stamps as part of Panama's history.
Here he is in an unflattering picture.
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First the subject title does not do justice to the post - could have been 'banned countries'. You forgot to mention North Korea, Cuba and Syria.
It's time dealers realize that stamps from these countries are not being sought by collectors and stop selling them. Few collectors like you and me can never make a difference to the economies of the banned countries by not buying stamps issued by them or in their name. PayPal has taken a clear step in this regard and is not finalizing payments if it is for material from these countries, maybe eBay should be more stringent in their policies but sadly it is money they are after.
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It is educational for me to read these provocative and candid comments.
Myself, I collect stamps from all the countries mentioned above.
Although much of my extended family's blood was spilled in the Second World War
on behalf of the Allies, I admit to having an extensive collection of Third Reich stamps
and other stamps related to that war.
As a lifelong student of history, I believe there are no inhuman acts.
If politics or villainy were to filter my stamp collection, not sure what would be in my
stamp albums. Non-poisonous flora? Herbivores? Life-supporting machinery?
Smiley-face cartoon characters?
My opinion is that for every postage stamp, irrespective of depiction or origin,
there is a stamp collector. I appreciate being able to collect whatever
postage stamps I want, and may it ever be that way.
John Derry
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I doubt that any revenue from stamp sales ever would reach a terrorist regimes hands. Stamp sales are used to pay for the cost of running the postal service, where ever it is and probably in most cases does not even cover the actual costs. Additionally, an individual selling stamps who just happens to live in a terrorist state does not mean that individual is a terrorist. This is a lot like profiling for all the wrong reasons.
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I'm kinda with John on this, collect what you want.
as to defining terrorist, that seems to be in the eye of the person being held or bombed or raped or mutilated.
We point out those who are demonized by the US, but that's a faulty eye-piece representing a single perspective.
We would do well to look at history before trashing any government or leader. Think back a couple of years to a few events: we traded guns with Iran to help arm insurgents (for sitting governments, insurgents are always terrorists, n'est ce pas?) in Nicaragua; love the pix of Rummy embracing Saddam; are Palestinians bad for wanting their homes back or the same justice system as the occupiers; Noriega was our gun runner before we deposed a head of state on drug charges; and i bet there are few guys not wearing NATO cammies who think drones are good.
Unless water boarding becomes an olympic sport or becomes a featured attraction at Sea World, I think one would need call it what it is and if torture is heinous, am i then obligated to surrender my US collection in solidarity with all the nameless forgotten who are neither civil nor military and enjoy due process in neither court.
I don't think i've said any of this particularly eloquently, but my position is clear. Bad guys abound: some are corporate, some Communist, some Islamic, some Evangelical, and some just want to be left alone and will fight for that privilege.
I'll leave you with this final thought. W went to war against Iraq and there are now hundreds of thousands dead, maimed, and otherwise rent asunder; he did this to avenge those he didn't protect from guys hijacking planes; those guys had Saudi and Egyptian citizenship. We tried to kill Osama in Afghanistan but succeeded only when we looked at OTC in Pakistan. So, which of these collections should i trash?
David, a political outlier
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I am sure this discussion in other countries might add the USA to the countries you listed. Remember when Iran was a US ally? And then there are some who would add Israel to the list too. Probably about the only countries one would NOT add to a terrorist list are Canada and New Zealand! And are we talking about domestic terrorism? That is, reprehensible acts committed on residents on one's own soil sometime in history? No country is immune by this definition then.
Don't kill the messenger; I'm just saying Eye of the beholder, as someone else said. I don't think the term terrorist adds anything to the discussion.
Peter
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I'm willing to collect stamps from any country that has decent human beings living in it regardless of the image on the stamps. That means I can collect them all.
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The WW classical era 1840-1940 has...
Imperialism
Colonialism
Despots
Dictators
...and more
If I refused to collect those countries- which actually constituted the majority at that time- well, my collection would be selective indeed. 
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I have an extensive and deep collection of British Commonwealth of the King George VI reign (1937-1952).
Included with my Indian stamps are the AZAD HIND stamps. AZAD HIND was the free India movement, supported by the NAZIs. It never really got anywhere. As much as these stamps are an affront to His Late Majesty, and everything that our British Commonwealth stands for... they are still in my collection.
You cannot change history, folks.
Take the good with the bad.
David
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A stamp is only a piece of paper. If there is an illustration for it in my album, I hinge it in.
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David, thank you; you just answered a question I had for a while about what Azad Hind stamps were! 
I also have a complete mint set of USSR stamps and sheetlets from 1960s through the end of the Soviet Union. I find it less distressing to see the propaganda on those stamps, than hearing some of today's youth ask me "what does CCCP mean?" and look blankly at me when I say "That's Russian for the USSR" at which point they ask, "What's that?" Ugh.
Peter
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Nice Cindys DavidG. The perforated set is hard to find...the 1+2R especially.
As part of my Cinderella collection, I have some propaganda/Patriotic items....I find them most interesting and not easy to come by.
Regarding postage stamps, it does bother me a little when nations take propaganda too far, like Iran on occasion.
In my opinion, the above stamp should never have got passed the UPU. I will not give any further opinions, either on the stamp or the UPU for fear of being accused of Bias !! 
There are many other besides.
DAWSON'S FIELD HIJACKINGS.
In September 1970, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) simultaneously hijacked 4 aircraft. The hijackers on an El Al flight were overpowered but the other 3 aircraft were forced to land in the Jordanian Desert where most of the prisoners were released and planes blown up.
Depicted on the propaganda label (above) is a scene from the bombing of the aircraft and jubilant militants.
I have scant information about the label regarding designer, printer etc but it did come with a story that the label was printed BEFORE the hijackings took place and shows Leila Khalid (Now a Politician) and Nicaraguan terrorist Patrick Arguello celebrating the successful operation. However, both were on the El Al flight, the former being captured (later released in a prisoner swap) and the latter killed on the plane.
I have no information about when or where the label was used.
Londonbus1
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07:04:56am
Hi! Londonbus1, the first stamp above (little boy throwing a stone at the star of David) had passed the limit of tolerance. The stamp was issued in 1991. On the international scene, the stamp was banned and Iran had to withdraw the use of that stamp from circulation.A few sheets (and/or stamps, blocks...) "escaped" and found themselves in stamp collections.What makes it even worse is that this stamp was issued to commemorate the "international day of children"!!!
Londonbus1 has a very good example of dictatorships such as Iran.They go very far but no State seemed to have reacted in those days (except for the above stamp and another 2)???See the thread I have opened about the Islamic Republic of Iran and the few comments that were made about the stamp blocks that figure there........
Daniel.
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Kiwi,
The Iranian stamp must have had widespread postal Use as it is listed in Gibbons and they have a strict policy of seeing postal use for each stamp before listing. (Not sure what they do with Great Britain and other such nations with modern day rubbish, but I'm sure they have their excuses!!)
Londonbus1
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Well... I think you all turned me around. I understand all of your points. You have changed my opinion, which wasn't what I was going for, but I do consider myself very "open minded" and have no problem considering others' points of view, but as I said in the beginning, it just felt "weird" But after reading everyone's thoughts, I'm swinging the other way.
Have a Great Day Everyone
Clayton
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09:27:52am
Clayton, don't worry. I felt the same way when I started collecting those stamps. Unfortunately, they are parts of human History. As many here say, you have to take the good parts and the bad parts. Stamps have many fields of interests: history,geography, environment .......and many other fields.Londonbus1 ,Just trying desperately to find this article on that stamp again on the web....
Daniel.
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09:48:26am
This is what I found so far on this stamp:
U.s., Israel Condemn Iran Stamp Showing Boy Stoning a Synagogue
February 12, 1992
The United States has joined Israel in condemning an Iranian postage stamp that depicts a young boy hurling a rock through a window with a Star of David.
It is Iran’s contribution to the 1991 International Day of the Child.
The stamp is the most egregious example of state-sponsored religious intolerance, John Burgess, the U.S. delegate to the U.N. Human Rights Commission, said at its annual meeting here.
The stamp, which evokes memories of Kristallnacht in Nazi Germany 54 years ago, encourages intolerance and violence against members of the Jewish faith, the U.S. envoy told the commission Monday.
“It violates both the 1991 declaration and a 1984 resolution of the Universal Postal Union, which called for the avoidance of stamp designs that are offensive to people or countries,†Burgess pointed out.
“Such activity should be deemed completely unacceptable, particularly for a member of the Human Rights Commission,†he said.
Read more: http://www.jta.org/1992/02/12/archive/u-s-israel-condemn-iran-stamp-showing-boy-stoning-a-synagogue#ixzz2aFvcNaOd
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-07-27 12:43:27)
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tuscany4me,
Don't worry too much. To each their own.
There is one area that I will not touch because of political decisions.
Anyone can be affected by events.....we have to follow our heart and head.
So don't worry if you feel strongly about something, it is healthy and true!
Londonbus1
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And, of course, how do you categorize this one?
Iran, Scott 2143, commemorative for the conference on crimes of Saddam Hussein.
Or this one:
Iran, Scott 2335, commemorative for Iran Air Flight 655
I fully agree with Kiwi on the "Kid throwing rock stamp," but overall I find Iranian stamps interesting and enjoy collecting them.
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What does everybody think about ebay pulling listings of countries the United Stated does not have diplomatic relations with? I feel ebay should not be able to dictate what we collect. We should be able to buy what we want. Did ebay refund listing fees for all the listings they pulled? I hope this will start a discussion.
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07:56:09am
And here are the 2 other stamps that were condemned by Israel and the USA; one still concerns Israel and the other the USA: stamp commemoration related to the event of the takeover of the american ambassy in Teheran in 1979. I don't know how UPU reacted on those 2 stamps though?
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09:03:00am
JOHN, here is an interesting written conversation I found on ebay:
http://community.ebay.com/t5/Stamp-Collectors/Can-t-list-stamps-from-Cuba-Iran-Iraq-Libya-North-Korea-Syria/td-p/2779112
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I have many of those Iranian stamps on covers, to the US, no less. They are interesting. Of course, it helps to view Iranian disdain for the US in relation to, first, our support of the Shah and his coup d'etat of a democratically elected government (US loves democracies that like us back, but prefer dictators who side with us; note that the coup is a direct result of the nationalization of......drum roll please..... the Iranian oil industry two years earlier) and, second our support of Iraq in a decades long border war that drained both countries (can you spell Iran-ContraGate?).
As to eBay, it's a business, nothing more. They have decided it's easier to follow the rules of the host countries in which they operate. Anyone paying any attention to eBay's actions knows that they have little interest in their users, only in their users' fees.
How many consecutive cynical statements are we allowed Bobby?
David
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03:28:04pm
"How many consecutive cynical statements are we allowed Bobby?"
We start capping them, and you, me, and several other members will have to stop posting!
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06:11:56pm
I think the issue with ebay prohibiting stamp collectors from listing or purchasing stamps of these countries is ridiculous.
As far as Clayton's original issue - I totally see where you are coming from. Interestingly enough I collect Germany - all eras. When some family members found out that I collect all issues, they were quite taken aback and could not understand why I would want to collect Nazi era stamps. For my family, this is a very painful period as many family members did not make it through the holocaust. One of my uncles, a survivor of Buchenwald, understood the reason why I include that era in my collection. Others simply did not understand nor want to understand why I have them. I respect their reasonings and granted, I have the same feelings towards Iranian stamps that they have towards Nazi era stamps.
Kelly
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Kelly's remarks make me think if there would not have been a line crossed to collect the Nazi Germany stamps at the time. This is somewhat to Clayton's earlier point afterall. Particularly collecting the ubiquitous Nazi semi-postals at the time, which likely in one way or the other benefited the war effort. Today, of course, all of these stamps are merely historical artifacts. I know several collectors that do not collect German stamps from this period. I can see that, as some of the motives still can creep you out.
Arno
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In my book these are just as bad as the various Iranian issues. But I collect them all
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Peter G:
I concur.
Interesting to note that those two stamps from Germany were cancelled on Hitler;s birthday.
David
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I didn´t even notice, I just saw they were cancelled shortly before the defeat
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Stamp collecting was always popular in Germany. Many stamps, commemorative postmarks, etc. were issued to honour Hitler.
It would be interesting to know where in Berlin that post office was. As you said, it's right before the fall of Berlin!
David
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Hitler's birthday actually was April 20th, not 21st. But April 21, 1945 was the intended first day for these stamps. The post office Berlin W (for West) 8 was in Französische Straße 9-12 in Berlin-Mitte, which ended being in the Soviet Sectors of Berlin after the war.
I remember a discussion if these last two stamps of the Third Reich actually ever saw postal usage before the curtain fell on Nazi-Germany. The Michel catalog has delisted used copies of these two stamps, pending further research.
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I stand corrected.
David
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I´m not sure if much mail was delivered those last days of the war. I´m pretty sure the stamps didn´t make it out of Berlin untill after the war.
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I have no problem with collecting stamps from Russia, China, Germany. I'm just not sure I would want stamps depicting Hitler himself. I probably would collect from Iraq, But Iran is clearly a country (government) that supports terrorists and Somalia? Aren't they the pirates constantly kidnapping people as they pass by on ships/boats? I'm just saying (again, as a "topical" collector) that it just feels weird thinking about collecting certain stamps. You are all surely correct in referring to them as part of history, and since I'm beginning a collection on Lincoln, I would probably buy a stamp (if there were one) with John Wilkes Booth.
Have a Great Weekend All
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Well, here goes my two cents worth.
I do not see anything wrong with collecting stamps with Hitler. In fact, there are collectors who specialize in the Third Reich, as most of you know anyway. Those collectors really take in interest in the postal aspect and designs of stamps in those 12 years of our darkest history.
I don't collect stamps from the Middle East because I specialize in only about 10 countries as it is. Judging by some of the designs I have seen in here, I would rather stay away from them anyway.
Chimo
Bujutsu
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@ Bujutsu
Appreciate the comment, but I just want to clarify, I don't believe I ever said there was "something wrong" with buying those stamps. "just feels weird." But appreciate your insight as this is something I still toss around in the back of my mind.
Thanks,
Clayton
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Dear Postal Historians,
Your perspectives always enlighten the reader, but to Clayton's original point "it just feels weird" I also have a gut reaction to Hitler Heads and the Third Reich collections. Not to the original German and German history, just that section of humanitarian outrage.
In my 8th decade I have learned to trust my gut on many issues about life. My heart is saddened about those dark times.If we can learn from them what not to do, what not to be like, then perhaps some enlightenment can come from it. As for 'Terrorist Country' labels-is there really any doubt that we have all done and continue to do bad things in the name of some good?
Perhaps this thread may be best understood with the caution from the bible 'Judge not lest ye be judged'. Collect as you wish, but listen to your inner wisdom when it whispers caution/sadness/extremism.
Dan C.
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Hi Clayton
I appreciate your response.
What I was trying to do was just give a more 'generalized' answer.
I realized that you never stated it was wrong. I guess what I am trying to say is, this is just a hobby and we shouldn't consider politics, but, just collect the way we feel (?)
Chimo
Bujutsu
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09:35:24pm
History is the record of human achievement. The great and fantastic things as well as the horrendous.
There are too many people today who have somewhere approaching zero understanding of that era, or any other era unless it is commemorated in a recent ritual chant that passes for music.
As the philosopher said, they are doomed to repeat the worst mistakes again.
Stamp collections are a hobby and purely a diversion for some, but in their small way they are a record of the events, attitudes, customs and follies of the last hundred and sixty years and insofar as they refer back to the past, ancient or nearly so, they record those events as well. Stamps in a strange way can also embody the hopes and dreams for
the future in space exploration, human rights and almost every worthwhile endeavor.
Hitler happened. He should never happen again.
The Greta Leap Forward happened as did the adventures of Pol Pot.
Nie wieder! as the graffiti in a photo of a wall somewhere in Europe proclaimed.
Never again repeat the horror, but that can only be prevented if someone remembers the horror or records the horror and can explain the horrors.
And, my friends, stamp collections in their way record and illustrate the horrors.
If stamps of that era bring up a vile taste from the gullet, skip the subject, but in a way that allows selective memories to delete the horrors and guarantees their eventual redux, under a different rubric perhaps on a different continent but every bit as doleful.
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I eluded to this in another topic, so here it goes. Don't mean to offend anyone in the club. But I must say that I currently do not accept or intentionally purchase any stamps from certain countries, such as Iran, Venesuela, Sumalia, or any other country. It is very difficult to explain. But I say to myself, 'Why would I want a stamp with Hitler on it?' and I feel as though if I bought stamps from those so-called "terrorist" countries, that I am supporting it. I know its weird, but I just feel weird when even considering buying them.
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Yeah, to each their own, as they say. I really don't see Venezuela as a terrorist country (though I could be wrong). Somalia is not a terrorist country either, in my mind. Iran on the other hand, hits the nail on the head (dare I say Hezbollah?).
Even so I would not refuse to collect Iran solely because the current administration has terroristic leadership. I refuse because I just don't feel like expanding my already overloaded collecting goals.
To me stamps are history. With history you take the good with the bad, and try to learn from others' mistakes.
Here is a military dictator from Panama--a relatively benign one named Omar Torrijos. In a few years he will die under mysterious circumstances and one of his favored generals will win the ensuing power struggle, bringing darkness and terror to Panama.
Thankfully the successor, Manuel Antonio Noriega, had a bit of an image problem due to extreme acne issues. He was called "cara de piña" or "pineaple face". I suspect this is why no postage stamps were issued with his likeness during his reign of terror.
Even if there had been stamps with his likeness made, I would still collect the stamps as part of Panama's history.
Here he is in an unflattering picture.
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
First the subject title does not do justice to the post - could have been 'banned countries'. You forgot to mention North Korea, Cuba and Syria.
It's time dealers realize that stamps from these countries are not being sought by collectors and stop selling them. Few collectors like you and me can never make a difference to the economies of the banned countries by not buying stamps issued by them or in their name. PayPal has taken a clear step in this regard and is not finalizing payments if it is for material from these countries, maybe eBay should be more stringent in their policies but sadly it is money they are after.
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
26 Jul 2013
01:38:12pm
re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
It is educational for me to read these provocative and candid comments.
Myself, I collect stamps from all the countries mentioned above.
Although much of my extended family's blood was spilled in the Second World War
on behalf of the Allies, I admit to having an extensive collection of Third Reich stamps
and other stamps related to that war.
As a lifelong student of history, I believe there are no inhuman acts.
If politics or villainy were to filter my stamp collection, not sure what would be in my
stamp albums. Non-poisonous flora? Herbivores? Life-supporting machinery?
Smiley-face cartoon characters?
My opinion is that for every postage stamp, irrespective of depiction or origin,
there is a stamp collector. I appreciate being able to collect whatever
postage stamps I want, and may it ever be that way.
John Derry
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
I doubt that any revenue from stamp sales ever would reach a terrorist regimes hands. Stamp sales are used to pay for the cost of running the postal service, where ever it is and probably in most cases does not even cover the actual costs. Additionally, an individual selling stamps who just happens to live in a terrorist state does not mean that individual is a terrorist. This is a lot like profiling for all the wrong reasons.
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
I'm kinda with John on this, collect what you want.
as to defining terrorist, that seems to be in the eye of the person being held or bombed or raped or mutilated.
We point out those who are demonized by the US, but that's a faulty eye-piece representing a single perspective.
We would do well to look at history before trashing any government or leader. Think back a couple of years to a few events: we traded guns with Iran to help arm insurgents (for sitting governments, insurgents are always terrorists, n'est ce pas?) in Nicaragua; love the pix of Rummy embracing Saddam; are Palestinians bad for wanting their homes back or the same justice system as the occupiers; Noriega was our gun runner before we deposed a head of state on drug charges; and i bet there are few guys not wearing NATO cammies who think drones are good.
Unless water boarding becomes an olympic sport or becomes a featured attraction at Sea World, I think one would need call it what it is and if torture is heinous, am i then obligated to surrender my US collection in solidarity with all the nameless forgotten who are neither civil nor military and enjoy due process in neither court.
I don't think i've said any of this particularly eloquently, but my position is clear. Bad guys abound: some are corporate, some Communist, some Islamic, some Evangelical, and some just want to be left alone and will fight for that privilege.
I'll leave you with this final thought. W went to war against Iraq and there are now hundreds of thousands dead, maimed, and otherwise rent asunder; he did this to avenge those he didn't protect from guys hijacking planes; those guys had Saudi and Egyptian citizenship. We tried to kill Osama in Afghanistan but succeeded only when we looked at OTC in Pakistan. So, which of these collections should i trash?
David, a political outlier
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04:20:00pm
re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
I am sure this discussion in other countries might add the USA to the countries you listed. Remember when Iran was a US ally? And then there are some who would add Israel to the list too. Probably about the only countries one would NOT add to a terrorist list are Canada and New Zealand! And are we talking about domestic terrorism? That is, reprehensible acts committed on residents on one's own soil sometime in history? No country is immune by this definition then.
Don't kill the messenger; I'm just saying Eye of the beholder, as someone else said. I don't think the term terrorist adds anything to the discussion.
Peter
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
I'm willing to collect stamps from any country that has decent human beings living in it regardless of the image on the stamps. That means I can collect them all.
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
The WW classical era 1840-1940 has...
Imperialism
Colonialism
Despots
Dictators
...and more
If I refused to collect those countries- which actually constituted the majority at that time- well, my collection would be selective indeed.
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
I have an extensive and deep collection of British Commonwealth of the King George VI reign (1937-1952).
Included with my Indian stamps are the AZAD HIND stamps. AZAD HIND was the free India movement, supported by the NAZIs. It never really got anywhere. As much as these stamps are an affront to His Late Majesty, and everything that our British Commonwealth stands for... they are still in my collection.
You cannot change history, folks.
Take the good with the bad.
David
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Dogs are my favorite people. I hang with this one as often as I can.
27 Jul 2013
02:06:25am
re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
A stamp is only a piece of paper. If there is an illustration for it in my album, I hinge it in.
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05:52:37am
re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
David, thank you; you just answered a question I had for a while about what Azad Hind stamps were!
I also have a complete mint set of USSR stamps and sheetlets from 1960s through the end of the Soviet Union. I find it less distressing to see the propaganda on those stamps, than hearing some of today's youth ask me "what does CCCP mean?" and look blankly at me when I say "That's Russian for the USSR" at which point they ask, "What's that?" Ugh.
Peter
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Nice Cindys DavidG. The perforated set is hard to find...the 1+2R especially.
As part of my Cinderella collection, I have some propaganda/Patriotic items....I find them most interesting and not easy to come by.
Regarding postage stamps, it does bother me a little when nations take propaganda too far, like Iran on occasion.
In my opinion, the above stamp should never have got passed the UPU. I will not give any further opinions, either on the stamp or the UPU for fear of being accused of Bias !!
There are many other besides.
DAWSON'S FIELD HIJACKINGS.
In September 1970, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) simultaneously hijacked 4 aircraft. The hijackers on an El Al flight were overpowered but the other 3 aircraft were forced to land in the Jordanian Desert where most of the prisoners were released and planes blown up.
Depicted on the propaganda label (above) is a scene from the bombing of the aircraft and jubilant militants.
I have scant information about the label regarding designer, printer etc but it did come with a story that the label was printed BEFORE the hijackings took place and shows Leila Khalid (Now a Politician) and Nicaraguan terrorist Patrick Arguello celebrating the successful operation. However, both were on the El Al flight, the former being captured (later released in a prisoner swap) and the latter killed on the plane.
I have no information about when or where the label was used.
Londonbus1
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The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. Mahatma Gandhi.
27 Jul 2013
07:04:56am
re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Hi! Londonbus1, the first stamp above (little boy throwing a stone at the star of David) had passed the limit of tolerance. The stamp was issued in 1991. On the international scene, the stamp was banned and Iran had to withdraw the use of that stamp from circulation.A few sheets (and/or stamps, blocks...) "escaped" and found themselves in stamp collections.What makes it even worse is that this stamp was issued to commemorate the "international day of children"!!!
Londonbus1 has a very good example of dictatorships such as Iran.They go very far but no State seemed to have reacted in those days (except for the above stamp and another 2)???See the thread I have opened about the Islamic Republic of Iran and the few comments that were made about the stamp blocks that figure there........
Daniel.
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Kiwi,
The Iranian stamp must have had widespread postal Use as it is listed in Gibbons and they have a strict policy of seeing postal use for each stamp before listing. (Not sure what they do with Great Britain and other such nations with modern day rubbish, but I'm sure they have their excuses!!)
Londonbus1
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Well... I think you all turned me around. I understand all of your points. You have changed my opinion, which wasn't what I was going for, but I do consider myself very "open minded" and have no problem considering others' points of view, but as I said in the beginning, it just felt "weird" But after reading everyone's thoughts, I'm swinging the other way.
Have a Great Day Everyone
Clayton
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The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. Mahatma Gandhi.
27 Jul 2013
09:27:52am
re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Clayton, don't worry. I felt the same way when I started collecting those stamps. Unfortunately, they are parts of human History. As many here say, you have to take the good parts and the bad parts. Stamps have many fields of interests: history,geography, environment .......and many other fields.Londonbus1 ,Just trying desperately to find this article on that stamp again on the web....
Daniel.
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The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. Mahatma Gandhi.
27 Jul 2013
09:48:26am
re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
This is what I found so far on this stamp:
U.s., Israel Condemn Iran Stamp Showing Boy Stoning a Synagogue
February 12, 1992
The United States has joined Israel in condemning an Iranian postage stamp that depicts a young boy hurling a rock through a window with a Star of David.
It is Iran’s contribution to the 1991 International Day of the Child.
The stamp is the most egregious example of state-sponsored religious intolerance, John Burgess, the U.S. delegate to the U.N. Human Rights Commission, said at its annual meeting here.
The stamp, which evokes memories of Kristallnacht in Nazi Germany 54 years ago, encourages intolerance and violence against members of the Jewish faith, the U.S. envoy told the commission Monday.
“It violates both the 1991 declaration and a 1984 resolution of the Universal Postal Union, which called for the avoidance of stamp designs that are offensive to people or countries,†Burgess pointed out.
“Such activity should be deemed completely unacceptable, particularly for a member of the Human Rights Commission,†he said.
Read more: http://www.jta.org/1992/02/12/archive/u-s-israel-condemn-iran-stamp-showing-boy-stoning-a-synagogue#ixzz2aFvcNaOd
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-07-27 12:43:27)
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
tuscany4me,
Don't worry too much. To each their own.
There is one area that I will not touch because of political decisions.
Anyone can be affected by events.....we have to follow our heart and head.
So don't worry if you feel strongly about something, it is healthy and true!
Londonbus1
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
And, of course, how do you categorize this one?
Iran, Scott 2143, commemorative for the conference on crimes of Saddam Hussein.
Or this one:
Iran, Scott 2335, commemorative for Iran Air Flight 655
I fully agree with Kiwi on the "Kid throwing rock stamp," but overall I find Iranian stamps interesting and enjoy collecting them.
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
What does everybody think about ebay pulling listings of countries the United Stated does not have diplomatic relations with? I feel ebay should not be able to dictate what we collect. We should be able to buy what we want. Did ebay refund listing fees for all the listings they pulled? I hope this will start a discussion.
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The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. Mahatma Gandhi.
28 Jul 2013
07:56:09am
re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
And here are the 2 other stamps that were condemned by Israel and the USA; one still concerns Israel and the other the USA: stamp commemoration related to the event of the takeover of the american ambassy in Teheran in 1979. I don't know how UPU reacted on those 2 stamps though?
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The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. Mahatma Gandhi.
28 Jul 2013
09:03:00am
re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
JOHN, here is an interesting written conversation I found on ebay:
http://community.ebay.com/t5/Stamp-Collectors/Can-t-list-stamps-from-Cuba-Iran-Iraq-Libya-North-Korea-Syria/td-p/2779112
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
I have many of those Iranian stamps on covers, to the US, no less. They are interesting. Of course, it helps to view Iranian disdain for the US in relation to, first, our support of the Shah and his coup d'etat of a democratically elected government (US loves democracies that like us back, but prefer dictators who side with us; note that the coup is a direct result of the nationalization of......drum roll please..... the Iranian oil industry two years earlier) and, second our support of Iraq in a decades long border war that drained both countries (can you spell Iran-ContraGate?).
As to eBay, it's a business, nothing more. They have decided it's easier to follow the rules of the host countries in which they operate. Anyone paying any attention to eBay's actions knows that they have little interest in their users, only in their users' fees.
How many consecutive cynical statements are we allowed Bobby?
David
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
28 Jul 2013
03:28:04pm
re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
"How many consecutive cynical statements are we allowed Bobby?"
We start capping them, and you, me, and several other members will have to stop posting!
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28 Jul 2013
06:11:56pm
re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
I think the issue with ebay prohibiting stamp collectors from listing or purchasing stamps of these countries is ridiculous.
As far as Clayton's original issue - I totally see where you are coming from. Interestingly enough I collect Germany - all eras. When some family members found out that I collect all issues, they were quite taken aback and could not understand why I would want to collect Nazi era stamps. For my family, this is a very painful period as many family members did not make it through the holocaust. One of my uncles, a survivor of Buchenwald, understood the reason why I include that era in my collection. Others simply did not understand nor want to understand why I have them. I respect their reasonings and granted, I have the same feelings towards Iranian stamps that they have towards Nazi era stamps.
Kelly
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Kelly's remarks make me think if there would not have been a line crossed to collect the Nazi Germany stamps at the time. This is somewhat to Clayton's earlier point afterall. Particularly collecting the ubiquitous Nazi semi-postals at the time, which likely in one way or the other benefited the war effort. Today, of course, all of these stamps are merely historical artifacts. I know several collectors that do not collect German stamps from this period. I can see that, as some of the motives still can creep you out.
Arno
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
In my book these are just as bad as the various Iranian issues. But I collect them all
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Peter G:
I concur.
Interesting to note that those two stamps from Germany were cancelled on Hitler;s birthday.
David
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
I didn´t even notice, I just saw they were cancelled shortly before the defeat
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Stamp collecting was always popular in Germany. Many stamps, commemorative postmarks, etc. were issued to honour Hitler.
It would be interesting to know where in Berlin that post office was. As you said, it's right before the fall of Berlin!
David
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Hitler's birthday actually was April 20th, not 21st. But April 21, 1945 was the intended first day for these stamps. The post office Berlin W (for West) 8 was in Französische Straße 9-12 in Berlin-Mitte, which ended being in the Soviet Sectors of Berlin after the war.
I remember a discussion if these last two stamps of the Third Reich actually ever saw postal usage before the curtain fell on Nazi-Germany. The Michel catalog has delisted used copies of these two stamps, pending further research.
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
I stand corrected.
David
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
I´m not sure if much mail was delivered those last days of the war. I´m pretty sure the stamps didn´t make it out of Berlin untill after the war.
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
I have no problem with collecting stamps from Russia, China, Germany. I'm just not sure I would want stamps depicting Hitler himself. I probably would collect from Iraq, But Iran is clearly a country (government) that supports terrorists and Somalia? Aren't they the pirates constantly kidnapping people as they pass by on ships/boats? I'm just saying (again, as a "topical" collector) that it just feels weird thinking about collecting certain stamps. You are all surely correct in referring to them as part of history, and since I'm beginning a collection on Lincoln, I would probably buy a stamp (if there were one) with John Wilkes Booth.
Have a Great Weekend All
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Well, here goes my two cents worth.
I do not see anything wrong with collecting stamps with Hitler. In fact, there are collectors who specialize in the Third Reich, as most of you know anyway. Those collectors really take in interest in the postal aspect and designs of stamps in those 12 years of our darkest history.
I don't collect stamps from the Middle East because I specialize in only about 10 countries as it is. Judging by some of the designs I have seen in here, I would rather stay away from them anyway.
Chimo
Bujutsu
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
@ Bujutsu
Appreciate the comment, but I just want to clarify, I don't believe I ever said there was "something wrong" with buying those stamps. "just feels weird." But appreciate your insight as this is something I still toss around in the back of my mind.
Thanks,
Clayton
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Dear Postal Historians,
Your perspectives always enlighten the reader, but to Clayton's original point "it just feels weird" I also have a gut reaction to Hitler Heads and the Third Reich collections. Not to the original German and German history, just that section of humanitarian outrage.
In my 8th decade I have learned to trust my gut on many issues about life. My heart is saddened about those dark times.If we can learn from them what not to do, what not to be like, then perhaps some enlightenment can come from it. As for 'Terrorist Country' labels-is there really any doubt that we have all done and continue to do bad things in the name of some good?
Perhaps this thread may be best understood with the caution from the bible 'Judge not lest ye be judged'. Collect as you wish, but listen to your inner wisdom when it whispers caution/sadness/extremism.
Dan C.
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re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
Hi Clayton
I appreciate your response.
What I was trying to do was just give a more 'generalized' answer.
I realized that you never stated it was wrong. I guess what I am trying to say is, this is just a hobby and we shouldn't consider politics, but, just collect the way we feel (?)
Chimo
Bujutsu
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
27 Sep 2013
09:35:24pm
re: Stamps from Terrorist Countries
History is the record of human achievement. The great and fantastic things as well as the horrendous.
There are too many people today who have somewhere approaching zero understanding of that era, or any other era unless it is commemorated in a recent ritual chant that passes for music.
As the philosopher said, they are doomed to repeat the worst mistakes again.
Stamp collections are a hobby and purely a diversion for some, but in their small way they are a record of the events, attitudes, customs and follies of the last hundred and sixty years and insofar as they refer back to the past, ancient or nearly so, they record those events as well. Stamps in a strange way can also embody the hopes and dreams for
the future in space exploration, human rights and almost every worthwhile endeavor.
Hitler happened. He should never happen again.
The Greta Leap Forward happened as did the adventures of Pol Pot.
Nie wieder! as the graffiti in a photo of a wall somewhere in Europe proclaimed.
Never again repeat the horror, but that can only be prevented if someone remembers the horror or records the horror and can explain the horrors.
And, my friends, stamp collections in their way record and illustrate the horrors.
If stamps of that era bring up a vile taste from the gullet, skip the subject, but in a way that allows selective memories to delete the horrors and guarantees their eventual redux, under a different rubric perhaps on a different continent but every bit as doleful.
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