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Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Please ID an US cut square stamp. Can anybody show me how to ID this kind of stamps easily?
The tiny differences of dies make me dizzy!
Thank you very much for your time and efforts in advance!
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There are no dies to identify with that issue. There are only color and paper color differences. Yours appears to be the blue on white paper, Scott #U294. Minimal value.
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Michel, you're correct of course, but I think that the request was as much for how one identifies as to the correct I.D. Assuming that to be the case, and it may well not be so, let's see if this adds anything to your reply.
Peter, the first thing to do is to determine the bust type. In this case it could only be either a type U69 or U77. As Michael points out, it is consistent with the type U69 (scott #U294)and of minimal value. Look closely at the bust bottom curve to see the differences as to where they point.
Dan C
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Thank you both, I uploaded more images here.As my view, all three are U436, U93, but upper one is die-1, middle one is die-6 and lower one is die-1 too. The "G" of postage in middle and lower stamps are lost. Am I right?
Peter
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I believe this is the Plimpton etc. die from 1886-1898 and there are four different dies:
Die 83 has inner and outer frames toothed. Bust is well formed.
Die 84 is much like die 83 but a sharp point extends downward from the bottom portion of the bust.
Die 85 has a rounded forward end of the bust different from die 83.
Die 86 has two point projections that rise up from the top portion of the die below in the body area below Franklin's chin.
Often the outside of the envelope or in this case cut square does not accurately reflect the color (edit: the color of the envelope) and it is a good idea to check the inside of the envelope for the true color; this may possibly work with a cut square by looking at the back. Do the shades differ?
Die 83 can be found on white, amber, buff, blue, manila, amber-manila
Die 84 can be found on white, amber, amber-manila
Die 85 can be found on white, amber
Die 86 can be found on white, amber
There there a number of different watermarks, not applicable most likely for a cut square.
I think that's about it. Price spans the gamut.
I do not think yours is die 83, nor 84. I'm thinking it's die 85.
Bruce
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Peter, before we work with your I.D. on the 3 cent, let's deal with Bruce's I.D. of the 1 cent.
Bruce, dies 83-86 don't have a blue 1 cent. (Unless my computer is showing it to be blue instead of green which is always possible.)
Peter, agreed about die 1 for the first & third. For the middle one to be a die 6, the color would have to be a dark violet or dark purple, no? To my eye it isn't, but my eyes are no longer that reliable. I'm not certain about your comment on the "G"- what are you seeing that I am missing?
Good conversation guys- and remember that we might all be off track-but that's how we learn.
Best,
Dan C.
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Perhaps I should have mentioned that my info is not Scott-based. I referenced a United Postal Stationery Society publication which identifies the four 1c dies as numbered being blue not green. The green one in this publication is the 1899 Plimpton & Morgan issue which is green and was assigned die 98.
Bruce
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How very odd that the descriptions don't match up. If you have access to a Scott's specialized I'd be interested in your take on it with reference to the issues raised here.
Dan C.
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Hi Dan,
I pulled out my older (1979) Scott Specialized US cat and took a look as I normally refer now to the aforementioned USPSS catalog because it is much more comprehensive.
The Scott does only show U69 the blue 1c as one die without the four various dies that are shown in my USPSS catalog for the same 1c blue. This pattern is often repeated with all the other envelopes. I would imagine that copyright issues are why the USPSS doesn't match up numbers with Scott as I understand that Scott is very aggressive about protecting their system.
If you are into postal stationery, I recommend finding a copy of the USPSS books; one is 19th Century; the other 20th Century. The title of mine is: "Catalog of the 19th Century Stamped Envelopes, Wrappers, Cut Squares and Full Corners of the United States."
I'm not sure what the latest edition is but mine is a second edition printed in 2001. I won it at a local philatelic auction for $10 bucks a few years back (I had the 1980s one before that and paid more, too!) The book makes for a very informative read.
Bruce
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Very interesting Bruce. So in effect depending upon the catalog used, the designation may well be different.Since your catalog is more complete in descriptions and varieties of dies, I'm tempted to go with your I.D. rather than mine. Throws a monkey wrench into my understanding of course, but yours sounds to be a better source for I.D. in this area than Scott's. WOW!
Thanks for the insight (and the heartburn)
Dan C.
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Bruce,
Could you please link me to online sources for more detailed information how to I.D. cut square? Is it possible that you can share me your article that is very interesting?
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I don't have an online source for you but provided the info from my book. Since we are facing what has been termed Snowmageddon here in Michigan, I may obviously have some time on my hands for a few days so I will scan the images of the 19th Century dies that match the descriptions for identifying the cut square example you uploaded at the beginning of this thread. If you have a lot of this type of material, I would recommend the books I mentioned above this: I have both and they are excellent.
Bruce
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Peter,
I think your middle 3c Washington may be die 7 as it appears that both numerals slant to the right. Have you measured the head (tip of nose to back of neck)? Die 6 is small head (8-3/4mm) and die 7 large head (9-1/4).
Steve
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Steve,
I double checked middle 3C cut square. It is Die 6 (8-3/4 mm). Thank you.
Peter
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Bruce,
What does USPSS stand for? where can i find those books?
Peter
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Hi,
I think UPSS (United Postal Stationery Society ) is meant.
http://www.upss.org/
Jacques.
(Modified by Moderator on 2014-01-09 21:32:09)
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Jacques,
Thank you very much. The website of UPSS is great! It is a fantastic source to learn how to ID US postage stamps.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I was just looking here, today and don't see one of my posts to you regarding an earlier question which has now been answered.
Here is one page from my book that should give everyone an idea about the differences between Scott id and the UPSS for the image you provided.
Bruce
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Oh Bruce, that is exquisite! Very clear and precise-much better than the Scott's Specialized. Thank you for the addition.
Dan C.
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Bruce,
Your poster is very good. I have learned that ID US postage stamps is very challenging. I need read more before try to ID them.
Thank you very much!
Peter
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Thanks guys. I think the book is incredibly informative and detailed, actually both books and I recommend anyone interested in the subject to try to find a copy.
Those circle dies you have posted are very challenging.
Enjoy the hunt!
Bruce
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A good thread! When I was actively working on cut squares, I used the older black and white UPSS 19th century guide. It was, I believe 6" x 9" format. It's an amazing resource. In 2012, they published an new totally reformatted color guide for 19th century postal stationery. It is formatted for 3-ring binders. It's nicer looking, of course, and a more convenient format in my opinion.
My only complaint with the newer catalog is that they didn't include four pages of info regarding the 1887 2c dies that was in the older catalog. So, I scanned those pages and inserted them into the newer catalog.
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I am a member of the UPSS and I have a friend JOBI who has a website that explains the dies for cut squares and entires (full envelopes) jobi.bizhosting.com I believe is the web site but u can look him up in google too...
the UPSS is a great place to learn all kinds of stuff about envelopes, cut squares, and post cards... I collect US stuff only but they have a lot of foreign info too..
Fizban48
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I just visited the UPSS site for the first time in quite a while and discovered they now have the "United States 19th Century Envelope Catalog" in a downloadable PDF format for $13. I tend to prefer paper, but that's a nice price for something containing that much information! It was last updated last year. I don't know if the 2012 printed version has also been updated.
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11:18:46am
Greetings 2014 to all,
Please ID an US cut square stamp. Can anybody show me how to ID this kind of stamps easily?
The tiny differences of dies make me dizzy!
Thank you very much for your time and efforts in advance!
Login to Like
this post
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
There are no dies to identify with that issue. There are only color and paper color differences. Yours appears to be the blue on white paper, Scott #U294. Minimal value.
Login to Like
this post
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Michel, you're correct of course, but I think that the request was as much for how one identifies as to the correct I.D. Assuming that to be the case, and it may well not be so, let's see if this adds anything to your reply.
Peter, the first thing to do is to determine the bust type. In this case it could only be either a type U69 or U77. As Michael points out, it is consistent with the type U69 (scott #U294)and of minimal value. Look closely at the bust bottom curve to see the differences as to where they point.
Dan C
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03:10:02pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Thank you both, I uploaded more images here.As my view, all three are U436, U93, but upper one is die-1, middle one is die-6 and lower one is die-1 too. The "G" of postage in middle and lower stamps are lost. Am I right?
Peter
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10:01:05pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
I believe this is the Plimpton etc. die from 1886-1898 and there are four different dies:
Die 83 has inner and outer frames toothed. Bust is well formed.
Die 84 is much like die 83 but a sharp point extends downward from the bottom portion of the bust.
Die 85 has a rounded forward end of the bust different from die 83.
Die 86 has two point projections that rise up from the top portion of the die below in the body area below Franklin's chin.
Often the outside of the envelope or in this case cut square does not accurately reflect the color (edit: the color of the envelope) and it is a good idea to check the inside of the envelope for the true color; this may possibly work with a cut square by looking at the back. Do the shades differ?
Die 83 can be found on white, amber, buff, blue, manila, amber-manila
Die 84 can be found on white, amber, amber-manila
Die 85 can be found on white, amber
Die 86 can be found on white, amber
There there a number of different watermarks, not applicable most likely for a cut square.
I think that's about it. Price spans the gamut.
I do not think yours is die 83, nor 84. I'm thinking it's die 85.
Bruce
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re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Peter, before we work with your I.D. on the 3 cent, let's deal with Bruce's I.D. of the 1 cent.
Bruce, dies 83-86 don't have a blue 1 cent. (Unless my computer is showing it to be blue instead of green which is always possible.)
Peter, agreed about die 1 for the first & third. For the middle one to be a die 6, the color would have to be a dark violet or dark purple, no? To my eye it isn't, but my eyes are no longer that reliable. I'm not certain about your comment on the "G"- what are you seeing that I am missing?
Good conversation guys- and remember that we might all be off track-but that's how we learn.
Best,
Dan C.
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this post
03:29:25pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Perhaps I should have mentioned that my info is not Scott-based. I referenced a United Postal Stationery Society publication which identifies the four 1c dies as numbered being blue not green. The green one in this publication is the 1899 Plimpton & Morgan issue which is green and was assigned die 98.
Bruce
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re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
How very odd that the descriptions don't match up. If you have access to a Scott's specialized I'd be interested in your take on it with reference to the issues raised here.
Dan C.
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08:03:55pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Hi Dan,
I pulled out my older (1979) Scott Specialized US cat and took a look as I normally refer now to the aforementioned USPSS catalog because it is much more comprehensive.
The Scott does only show U69 the blue 1c as one die without the four various dies that are shown in my USPSS catalog for the same 1c blue. This pattern is often repeated with all the other envelopes. I would imagine that copyright issues are why the USPSS doesn't match up numbers with Scott as I understand that Scott is very aggressive about protecting their system.
If you are into postal stationery, I recommend finding a copy of the USPSS books; one is 19th Century; the other 20th Century. The title of mine is: "Catalog of the 19th Century Stamped Envelopes, Wrappers, Cut Squares and Full Corners of the United States."
I'm not sure what the latest edition is but mine is a second edition printed in 2001. I won it at a local philatelic auction for $10 bucks a few years back (I had the 1980s one before that and paid more, too!) The book makes for a very informative read.
Bruce
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re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Very interesting Bruce. So in effect depending upon the catalog used, the designation may well be different.Since your catalog is more complete in descriptions and varieties of dies, I'm tempted to go with your I.D. rather than mine. Throws a monkey wrench into my understanding of course, but yours sounds to be a better source for I.D. in this area than Scott's. WOW!
Thanks for the insight (and the heartburn)
Dan C.
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12:14:34pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Bruce,
Could you please link me to online sources for more detailed information how to I.D. cut square? Is it possible that you can share me your article that is very interesting?
Peter
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01:24:25pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Hi Peter,
I don't have an online source for you but provided the info from my book. Since we are facing what has been termed Snowmageddon here in Michigan, I may obviously have some time on my hands for a few days so I will scan the images of the 19th Century dies that match the descriptions for identifying the cut square example you uploaded at the beginning of this thread. If you have a lot of this type of material, I would recommend the books I mentioned above this: I have both and they are excellent.
Bruce
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this post
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Peter,
I think your middle 3c Washington may be die 7 as it appears that both numerals slant to the right. Have you measured the head (tip of nose to back of neck)? Die 6 is small head (8-3/4mm) and die 7 large head (9-1/4).
Steve
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07:46:13pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Steve,
I double checked middle 3C cut square. It is Die 6 (8-3/4 mm). Thank you.
Peter
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07:24:58pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Bruce,
What does USPSS stand for? where can i find those books?
Peter
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08:28:35pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Hi,
I think UPSS (United Postal Stationery Society ) is meant.
http://www.upss.org/
Jacques.
(Modified by Moderator on 2014-01-09 21:32:09)
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09:45:43pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Jacques,
Thank you very much. The website of UPSS is great! It is a fantastic source to learn how to ID US postage stamps.
Peter
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this post
03:38:45pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Hi Peter,
I was just looking here, today and don't see one of my posts to you regarding an earlier question which has now been answered.
Here is one page from my book that should give everyone an idea about the differences between Scott id and the UPSS for the image you provided.
Bruce
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this post
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Oh Bruce, that is exquisite! Very clear and precise-much better than the Scott's Specialized. Thank you for the addition.
Dan C.
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this post
09:04:13pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Bruce,
Your poster is very good. I have learned that ID US postage stamps is very challenging. I need read more before try to ID them.
Thank you very much!
Peter
Login to Like
this post
10:04:10pm
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
Thanks guys. I think the book is incredibly informative and detailed, actually both books and I recommend anyone interested in the subject to try to find a copy.
Those circle dies you have posted are very challenging.
Enjoy the hunt!
Bruce
Login to Like
this post
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
A good thread! When I was actively working on cut squares, I used the older black and white UPSS 19th century guide. It was, I believe 6" x 9" format. It's an amazing resource. In 2012, they published an new totally reformatted color guide for 19th century postal stationery. It is formatted for 3-ring binders. It's nicer looking, of course, and a more convenient format in my opinion.
My only complaint with the newer catalog is that they didn't include four pages of info regarding the 1887 2c dies that was in the older catalog. So, I scanned those pages and inserted them into the newer catalog.
Login to Like
this post
12:49:52am
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
I am a member of the UPSS and I have a friend JOBI who has a website that explains the dies for cut squares and entires (full envelopes) jobi.bizhosting.com I believe is the web site but u can look him up in google too...
the UPSS is a great place to learn all kinds of stuff about envelopes, cut squares, and post cards... I collect US stuff only but they have a lot of foreign info too..
Fizban48
Login to Like
this post
re: Help ID an US Cut Square Stamp
I just visited the UPSS site for the first time in quite a while and discovered they now have the "United States 19th Century Envelope Catalog" in a downloadable PDF format for $13. I tend to prefer paper, but that's a nice price for something containing that much information! It was last updated last year. I don't know if the 2012 printed version has also been updated.
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