Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Any ideas?
Login to Like
this post
To me, violet is more bluish than what you show. If you collect Germany, check this against #143 (violet) or #144 (red violet). There is no image in Scott for those, but here is B199, also violet.
It's hard to discern color differences from scans though. Better to compare them directly in good light if possible.
Peter
Login to Like
this post
Of course!. Thanks for pointing out the comparative approach. I was sort of doing this already, but not very precisely. I'm working under bright halogen light with a magnifier, but the problem is all of these look subtly different to my eye.
But your response gave me an idea for a quantitative approach. I have #143, but not 144, but also have #108 red violet and red from the same era. If I take all the scans into Photoshop, I can sample the colors with the eyedropper tool and get the RGB values. The red:blue ratio should vary (increase) from violet to magenta. This is what I get for these stamps:
mystery #89 60pf: 1.20
#143 violet: 1.27
#108 red violet: 1.57
#129 violet and green: 1.19
#130 ver and magenta: 1.57
There is some variability depending on exactly where I sample, and to really do this right I would take and average from several for each stamp. But I think this makes the 60pf more likely a violet, and it's pretty clear the red violet and magenta are quite different.
Anyone tried something similar before, or know if this sort of approach has been validated?
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Excellent sleuthing! Empirical data never lie.
Cheers,
Peter
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Seastamp,
Your logic is dead on. However, German stamps follow the Michel Color Guide (Farbenführer) which is based on printers (CMYK) inks. NOT, RGB (Red,Green, Blue) that is used by computers. If you scan a Michel color guide and check the values they will not match standard RGB colors. If you are seriously interested in pre 1946 Germany and German States it is an essential tool. The SG one is (fairly close if you don't need all the minor color variants. The Michele guide has 600 colors. 
The Michele guide is about $120 and the SG is about $25. So you can guess what one most collectors pick.
Login to Like
this post
I was able to buy a stamp advertised as SC#89 60 pf magenta. Scanned side by side (magenta left, putative violet right), the magenta stamp gives a red-blue ratio of 1.30-1.34, the mystery stamp 1.16-1.20. The magenta #89 isn't quite as red as the other magentas I measured, but still rather different than violet. The description of the prewar stamps is "bright colors and sharp impressions", which seems to fit the mystery stamp. Though I suppose I would have to get the stamp expertised to know whether this is truly the prewar #89c, or in the range of normal variability for the wartime 89 magenta.
I'm not quite sure how to deal with the CMYK issue. Technically when the stamp is scanned, it is converted to RGB for screen display. If I convert the images back to CMYK in Photoshop, then check the magenta to cyan ratio, I get 1.31 for the magenta stamp and 1.27 for mystery stamp. Not quite as dramatic difference, but it still seems to me the RGB comparison would be more valid for a scanned image.
Login to Like
this post
The best would be to scan the chips from the Michel color guide. I had the SG one scanned and color corrected somewhere I'll see if I can find it for you. If so I will email it to you.
Found the file. On it's way. Any problems let me know.
Login to Like
this post
Hi Seastamp:
I'm curious... what conclusions did you reach regarding this stamp? Is it the violet type or a prewar?
I have the same sort of problem with many of the early German and German States stamps & often wonder how others manage it. Gibbons color chart helps a little, but so many of the shades are so very subtle that i'd almost need to buy both stamps just to have an identification copy (so I could view both side-by-side), and that's not very practical.
And it seems to me that there are many variations related to stamp condition and storage, especially on 100 year-old stamps. (for example- is that buff paper, or maybe it's toning caused by acid in the envelope?)
Best
BG
Login to Like
this post
08:54:26am
There have been many discussions on this board regarding colors, shades and the like. Perhaps the best (IMHO) was a thread started by Rhinelander (CLICK HERE) back in February of last year, which specifically utilized the Germania issues as reference. But the gist of this, and any discussion on this topic, is that with all the variables involved (different naming systems between major catalogs, color chips that fade or are inaccurate to begin with, color differences so subtle only a mother would know, etc.) is that it is all subjective and no one can really definitively tell you whether a stamp is "carmine rose" or "rose carmine," and you cannot even trust the experts because their reference stamps could be mislabeled.
I do not even bother to try. If I have two (or more) stamps which appear subtly different in color, I just mount them all rather than knock myself out trying to differentiate which is which by Scott or whichever catalog I might be using.
I guess this is why I am just a "stamp collector" and am not now, or ever will be, a "philatelist."
Login to Like
this post
Hi Everyone;
I agree with Bobby, life is too short to spend so much time on just one small group of stamps. I'm also a WW collector, of mint & used singles. I have the Scott's Germany and Area, specialty album, and about 30 others from that series plus the Scott's International Vol. 1-7. So I have more holes to fill than is possible, even if I live to be 100!
I can understand how fun it can be sometimes to spend a bunch of time on some narrow aspect of our hobby. But I too am just a "stamp collector", not a "philatelist". However I have always dreaded sorting all those British Machins. But on day I just decided to have a go at them.
I found among all those stamps three copies of 1'6d, in two shades of Blue (Ingigo & Greenish Blue). When I looked a bit closer, I noticed that on one copy the numerals of value where white, instead of light blue. Checking my Scott's catalog, revealed that I had a Scott listed MH16a (Greenish Blue omitted).
The value was $110.00 MNH. So I wondered what my used copy was worth? I logged onto eBay a searched for this Scott number. It came up that one sold for $265.00 about 8 months ago. I find on-line sales a better guide than Scott's, because any collectible is worth whatever you can get for it today. Scott's is okay for determining that a stamp is not common and may be worth something, but actual sales are better. Scott's has to use an average of many sales to arrive at a value.
Several weeks before that adventure I sorted tons of Queen Victoria Type A40. That's the one with either 16 or 14 dots in the four corners of the frame. I found two of the 14 dot varieties, and one now has a home in my Great Britain & British Europe specialty album.
I haven't got the chance to do the "Germania" series yet but probably won't devote that much effort on those. There are as many ways to collect as there are collectors. Sometimes it's fun to read these threads and learn something about what others are devoting their effort to discovering. We "stamp collectors" are the ones who benefit from the research of those whom are more devoted.
Happy detective work to one and all
Ken Tall Pines
Login to Like
this post
Among the many things about our world I don't understand, and I don't understand much, is why intelligent people insist on dumbing down our language. To be more specific, I don't understand why the word "philatelist" has become a pejorative.
A common definition of "philatelist" is "the collection and study of postage stamps." Here's another: "The collection and study of postage stamps, postmarks, and related materials; stamp collecting." Don't those definitions fit anyone who does more than "collect" stamps by stuffing them into envelopes, perhaps labelling the envelopes, and then forgetting them? I'm not a "stamp collector," or at least not "just" a stamp collector. If I tell you that I'm a stamp collector, you have no understanding that I also collect — and study — souvenir sheets, covers, postal cards, postcards, and many collateral items including airmail etiquettes, airline schedules, photographs, propaganda leaflets, military shoulder patches, and even a few "3D" items, including toys, die cast tanks and airliners, and books, a great many books. How is "stamp collector" going to cover all that?
Bob
Login to Like
this post
01:40:22pm
Bob, I never meant to infer that I disapproved of a true philatelist, quite the contrary. I not only admire and respect those who accumulate, categorize, organize and study the little pieces of colored paper, but truly wish I had the passion to do so as well; but I do not. I am content with collecting, buying, trading and selling stamps for the sole purpose of sticking them into albums, stockbooks, etc., without the "study" component.
As you pointed out, the definition of "philately" is "the collection and study of postage stamps." If you remove the "study" component, for which I have no motivation, what remains is simply "stamp collecting."
I appreciate those who do enjoy studying stamps, and especially appreciate those who share the product of their efforts with the rest of us. 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Hi Everyone;
Ditto!
Ken Tall Pines
Login to Like
this post
Sorry I'm just a geeky scientist that is really into color. Plus, part of the fun for me in stamp collecting is sleuthing out the oddball IDs. I'd like to be able to figure out if one of these really is a rarity with a high value. I've gathered some more. Here is one that was sold as Scott #89a (left), red violet, which is a wartime printing. Note however that the cancellation is for 1912, making that ID impossible. I believe this stamp is the only bona-fide prewar print I have, and it must be the original magenta color. Compare to my mystery #89 (middle), which I think might be the high value 89c, and a presumably wartime issue that is cancelled 1920 (right). The wartime "magenta" is darker than the prewar, but still has much more magenta than cyan compared to my mystery stamp. I have a bunch that are bona-fide prewar and wartime, and I honestly can't see a whole heck of a lot different in the print quality. Usually this is obvious only with those with the black centers (e.g. the 75pf Scott #90). I now have about 5 wartime 60pf stamps that are all basically the same color as the one shown on the right here (based on clearly visible cancellation dates or stamps from wartime districts, Poland, etc). I have yet to find one that is the same violet color as the mystery stamp.
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Here is an older post with the same question asked under another topic (now deleted) for help to identify German violet and magenta-colored Scott #89 stamps.
Login to Like
this post
Thanks, but what I need is a picture of an 89c and a 89b. I want to compare the two.
Login to Like
this post
Nelson,
Of the pictures you posted: which one would be considered a 89c? Which are 89b? Which are 89?
Thanks for the help!
Adam
Login to Like
this post
No doubt in mind whatsoever that your stamp is not Magenta.
Login to Like
this post
06:19:48pm
Hi, I'm trying to determine the ID of this Germania series 60pf stamp, which I think could be either Scott #89 (magenta), 89b (magenta), or 89c (violet). The issue is what Scott calls violet vs. magenta. Magenta stamps have low value, violet high value. For comparison, I've also uploaded an image of the later post-war series 1-1/4m vermillion & magenta (which has no other color variants). Just by my familiarity of colors from illustration work, I personally would call the 60pf stamp a purple or violet, and not a magenta, which should really be redder, but I don't know how age affects the pigments used on these stamps. The 1-1/4m stamp is definitely a redder purple when compared side-by-side. I am pretty sure the 60pf is a pre-war printing. I have others that are obviously the wartime lower-quality printing. The wartime printing is in magenta (89) or red violet (89a). Unfortunately no date is visible on the postmark.
Any ideas?
Login to Like
this post
08:13:57pm
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
To me, violet is more bluish than what you show. If you collect Germany, check this against #143 (violet) or #144 (red violet). There is no image in Scott for those, but here is B199, also violet.
It's hard to discern color differences from scans though. Better to compare them directly in good light if possible.
Peter
Login to Like
this post
09:42:04pm
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
Of course!. Thanks for pointing out the comparative approach. I was sort of doing this already, but not very precisely. I'm working under bright halogen light with a magnifier, but the problem is all of these look subtly different to my eye.
But your response gave me an idea for a quantitative approach. I have #143, but not 144, but also have #108 red violet and red from the same era. If I take all the scans into Photoshop, I can sample the colors with the eyedropper tool and get the RGB values. The red:blue ratio should vary (increase) from violet to magenta. This is what I get for these stamps:
mystery #89 60pf: 1.20
#143 violet: 1.27
#108 red violet: 1.57
#129 violet and green: 1.19
#130 ver and magenta: 1.57
There is some variability depending on exactly where I sample, and to really do this right I would take and average from several for each stamp. But I think this makes the 60pf more likely a violet, and it's pretty clear the red violet and magenta are quite different.
Anyone tried something similar before, or know if this sort of approach has been validated?
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
05:52:48am
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
Excellent sleuthing! Empirical data never lie.
Cheers,
Peter
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
07:58:46pm
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
Seastamp,
Your logic is dead on. However, German stamps follow the Michel Color Guide (Farbenführer) which is based on printers (CMYK) inks. NOT, RGB (Red,Green, Blue) that is used by computers. If you scan a Michel color guide and check the values they will not match standard RGB colors. If you are seriously interested in pre 1946 Germany and German States it is an essential tool. The SG one is (fairly close if you don't need all the minor color variants. The Michele guide has 600 colors.
The Michele guide is about $120 and the SG is about $25. So you can guess what one most collectors pick.
Login to Like
this post
09:52:21pm
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
I was able to buy a stamp advertised as SC#89 60 pf magenta. Scanned side by side (magenta left, putative violet right), the magenta stamp gives a red-blue ratio of 1.30-1.34, the mystery stamp 1.16-1.20. The magenta #89 isn't quite as red as the other magentas I measured, but still rather different than violet. The description of the prewar stamps is "bright colors and sharp impressions", which seems to fit the mystery stamp. Though I suppose I would have to get the stamp expertised to know whether this is truly the prewar #89c, or in the range of normal variability for the wartime 89 magenta.
I'm not quite sure how to deal with the CMYK issue. Technically when the stamp is scanned, it is converted to RGB for screen display. If I convert the images back to CMYK in Photoshop, then check the magenta to cyan ratio, I get 1.31 for the magenta stamp and 1.27 for mystery stamp. Not quite as dramatic difference, but it still seems to me the RGB comparison would be more valid for a scanned image.
Login to Like
this post
10:42:01pm
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
The best would be to scan the chips from the Michel color guide. I had the SG one scanned and color corrected somewhere I'll see if I can find it for you. If so I will email it to you.
Found the file. On it's way. Any problems let me know.
Login to Like
this post
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
Hi Seastamp:
I'm curious... what conclusions did you reach regarding this stamp? Is it the violet type or a prewar?
I have the same sort of problem with many of the early German and German States stamps & often wonder how others manage it. Gibbons color chart helps a little, but so many of the shades are so very subtle that i'd almost need to buy both stamps just to have an identification copy (so I could view both side-by-side), and that's not very practical.
And it seems to me that there are many variations related to stamp condition and storage, especially on 100 year-old stamps. (for example- is that buff paper, or maybe it's toning caused by acid in the envelope?)
Best
BG
Login to Like
this post
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
20 Jun 2014
08:54:26am
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
There have been many discussions on this board regarding colors, shades and the like. Perhaps the best (IMHO) was a thread started by Rhinelander (CLICK HERE) back in February of last year, which specifically utilized the Germania issues as reference. But the gist of this, and any discussion on this topic, is that with all the variables involved (different naming systems between major catalogs, color chips that fade or are inaccurate to begin with, color differences so subtle only a mother would know, etc.) is that it is all subjective and no one can really definitively tell you whether a stamp is "carmine rose" or "rose carmine," and you cannot even trust the experts because their reference stamps could be mislabeled.
I do not even bother to try. If I have two (or more) stamps which appear subtly different in color, I just mount them all rather than knock myself out trying to differentiate which is which by Scott or whichever catalog I might be using.
I guess this is why I am just a "stamp collector" and am not now, or ever will be, a "philatelist."
Login to Like
this post
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
Hi Everyone;
I agree with Bobby, life is too short to spend so much time on just one small group of stamps. I'm also a WW collector, of mint & used singles. I have the Scott's Germany and Area, specialty album, and about 30 others from that series plus the Scott's International Vol. 1-7. So I have more holes to fill than is possible, even if I live to be 100!
I can understand how fun it can be sometimes to spend a bunch of time on some narrow aspect of our hobby. But I too am just a "stamp collector", not a "philatelist". However I have always dreaded sorting all those British Machins. But on day I just decided to have a go at them.
I found among all those stamps three copies of 1'6d, in two shades of Blue (Ingigo & Greenish Blue). When I looked a bit closer, I noticed that on one copy the numerals of value where white, instead of light blue. Checking my Scott's catalog, revealed that I had a Scott listed MH16a (Greenish Blue omitted).
The value was $110.00 MNH. So I wondered what my used copy was worth? I logged onto eBay a searched for this Scott number. It came up that one sold for $265.00 about 8 months ago. I find on-line sales a better guide than Scott's, because any collectible is worth whatever you can get for it today. Scott's is okay for determining that a stamp is not common and may be worth something, but actual sales are better. Scott's has to use an average of many sales to arrive at a value.
Several weeks before that adventure I sorted tons of Queen Victoria Type A40. That's the one with either 16 or 14 dots in the four corners of the frame. I found two of the 14 dot varieties, and one now has a home in my Great Britain & British Europe specialty album.
I haven't got the chance to do the "Germania" series yet but probably won't devote that much effort on those. There are as many ways to collect as there are collectors. Sometimes it's fun to read these threads and learn something about what others are devoting their effort to discovering. We "stamp collectors" are the ones who benefit from the research of those whom are more devoted.
Happy detective work to one and all
Ken Tall Pines
Login to Like
this post
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
Among the many things about our world I don't understand, and I don't understand much, is why intelligent people insist on dumbing down our language. To be more specific, I don't understand why the word "philatelist" has become a pejorative.
A common definition of "philatelist" is "the collection and study of postage stamps." Here's another: "The collection and study of postage stamps, postmarks, and related materials; stamp collecting." Don't those definitions fit anyone who does more than "collect" stamps by stuffing them into envelopes, perhaps labelling the envelopes, and then forgetting them? I'm not a "stamp collector," or at least not "just" a stamp collector. If I tell you that I'm a stamp collector, you have no understanding that I also collect — and study — souvenir sheets, covers, postal cards, postcards, and many collateral items including airmail etiquettes, airline schedules, photographs, propaganda leaflets, military shoulder patches, and even a few "3D" items, including toys, die cast tanks and airliners, and books, a great many books. How is "stamp collector" going to cover all that?
Bob
Login to Like
this post
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
21 Jun 2014
01:40:22pm
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
Bob, I never meant to infer that I disapproved of a true philatelist, quite the contrary. I not only admire and respect those who accumulate, categorize, organize and study the little pieces of colored paper, but truly wish I had the passion to do so as well; but I do not. I am content with collecting, buying, trading and selling stamps for the sole purpose of sticking them into albums, stockbooks, etc., without the "study" component.
As you pointed out, the definition of "philately" is "the collection and study of postage stamps." If you remove the "study" component, for which I have no motivation, what remains is simply "stamp collecting."
I appreciate those who do enjoy studying stamps, and especially appreciate those who share the product of their efforts with the rest of us.
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
Hi Everyone;
Ditto!
Ken Tall Pines
Login to Like
this post
01:09:54am
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
Sorry I'm just a geeky scientist that is really into color. Plus, part of the fun for me in stamp collecting is sleuthing out the oddball IDs. I'd like to be able to figure out if one of these really is a rarity with a high value. I've gathered some more. Here is one that was sold as Scott #89a (left), red violet, which is a wartime printing. Note however that the cancellation is for 1912, making that ID impossible. I believe this stamp is the only bona-fide prewar print I have, and it must be the original magenta color. Compare to my mystery #89 (middle), which I think might be the high value 89c, and a presumably wartime issue that is cancelled 1920 (right). The wartime "magenta" is darker than the prewar, but still has much more magenta than cyan compared to my mystery stamp. I have a bunch that are bona-fide prewar and wartime, and I honestly can't see a whole heck of a lot different in the print quality. Usually this is obvious only with those with the black centers (e.g. the 75pf Scott #90). I now have about 5 wartime 60pf stamps that are all basically the same color as the one shown on the right here (based on clearly visible cancellation dates or stamps from wartime districts, Poland, etc). I have yet to find one that is the same violet color as the mystery stamp.
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
Here is an older post with the same question asked under another topic (now deleted) for help to identify German violet and magenta-colored Scott #89 stamps.
Login to Like
this post
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
Thanks, but what I need is a picture of an 89c and a 89b. I want to compare the two.
Login to Like
this post
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
Nelson,
Of the pictures you posted: which one would be considered a 89c? Which are 89b? Which are 89?
Thanks for the help!
Adam
Login to Like
this post
re: Germany - Germania series ID, 60pf magenta vs violet
No doubt in mind whatsoever that your stamp is not Magenta.
Login to Like
this post