Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I pose the question, when is a Forgery not a Forgery?
Answer: When it is Germany Michel # PFa17, known to most as “The Hitler Skull Stamp.â€
While considered a Propaganda forgery. It is actually not a forgery at all. It was the brainchild of General "Wild Bill" Donovan, head of the OSS (Office of Strategic Services) the U.S. Army espionage agency during World War II. It was designed to mimic the original where a forgery is meant to defraud or deceive. They were never put on any mail but in letters that were dropped in mail bags from the air near bombed trains. The letters ware addressed to the families of soldiers that were killed in action.
Printed in sheets of 50, Perforated, 11, 12½:11½, 12½ and Imperforate
The “Original Forgery"
This is a true Forgery. Printed to the detriment of collectors.
Notice the difference in the jaw line.
The format is also incorrect. These were never printed in minature sheets.
These are often sold as proof's. Make no mistake they are worthless modern fakes.
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Well, mostly agree. But wortheless? Some people collect the forgeries, at least the earlier ones of these which I believe were not photocopied.
The purveyors of this stuff prey on the unwitting. And it seems that eBay rarely removes fake stamps anymore.
I knew about the "real" ones but I thought a few made it on to mail, presumably placed there by very brave resistance people in the Third Reich. Could be apocryphal info though.
Bruce
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"But wortheless? Some people collect the forgeries, at least the earlier ones of these which I believe were not photocopied."
Yes, they are worthless garbage. I have been collecting War and Postal Forgeries for several decades. These are junk. The true forgeries of these were made shortly after the war and are Typographed as are the originals. They differ in that the 12 on the left is incorrect. The "1" is to thick and the "2" droops down and it ends in a ball. On the 2nd type the "1" is narrower at the bottom than it is at the top. The 3rd type is the modern one shown and is completely wrong.
"I thought a few made it on to mail"
There are a few covers that have been expertised with good certificates. However, there is much debate as to the authenticity of these. There are fewer than a dozen of these. Numerous covers do still exist from the "drops" with contents intact.
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I think this is good info, Revstampman, but the opener "when is a forgery a forgery etc." really does not do the topic justice. I believe there is near unanimous consent that the Hitler skull stamp is a forgery. Specifically, as you say, it is an American forgery of the contemporaneous 12 pf. Hitler definitive stamp. It is listed in the war and propaganda forgeries section of the Michel catalog and I do not question that judgment. I could see how someone could argue that the stamp is so dissimilar to the original that it represents a propaganda label more than a stamp, but that is not your argument.
This stamp is listed only in mint in Michel. Michel is meticulous, but not free of error, but generally I would take this for an indication that the stamp is not know in used condition. Michel is silent on the purpose of this stamp. I think it would be great to see one of the envelopes with this stamp you report exist.
Two other American war forgeries have been used on the envelopes dropped in mail bags, you mention. These:
These American war forgeries are readily available in mint. Obviously, the quantity produced outstripped the need, plus the end of the war made the stamps obsolete.
All of these stamps used on envelopes have fake cancellations (Vienna and Hannover) to go with the fake stamps. Here is a cover with the 12 Pf. and a Hannover cancel. I lifted this from the catalog of a German auction house where this cover sold in December for 220 EUR.
As for the plethora of modern forgeries of the Hitler skull stamp, in sheets of one, four, eight, nine, other colors, imporforated etc. etc., agreed these are complete junk. I am sure many collectors have been fooled by them.
Well, good stuff, Revstampman. Thanks for posting.
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"I think it would be great to see one of the envelopes with this stamp you report exist."
I wish I had one to show you! The last one I saw was in a German Auction 7-8 years ago. Along with a note that the authenticity of the usage has been disputed by some experts. Therefore they would only guarantee that the cancel, Ink, stamp and envelope were consistent with the time. The cover did have 2 or 3 certificates with it as I recall.
I do have the 6 and 12pf. Hitler forgeries as well. Your are correct about the cancels. There are actually 5 cancels that were used on the dropped letters bearing those stamps. 4 were Wien (Vienna) and 1 from Hannover.
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"The true forgeries of these were made shortly after the war and are Typographed as are the originals. They differ in that the 12 on the left is incorrect. The "1" is to thick and the "2" droops down and it ends in a ball. On the 2nd type the "1" is narrower at the bottom than it is at the top. The 3rd type is the modern one shown and is completely wrong."
So, to be clear, my point was that some people collect those early "true forgeries" of the WWII forgeries you mention in your comment, and while you might reject them, others add them to their collection, with full knowledge that they were produced right after WWII. The somewhat recent deluge of scanned and photocopied fakes do not receive the same attention.
While the prices fetched for the "true forgeries" from post WWII don't rival the workmanship and prices obtained by the Dutch forger Han van Meegeren who imfamously forged master paintings (duping Hermann Goering, among others), those early ones are still, "collectible" to some.
Bruce
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"So, to be clear, my point was that some people collect those early "true forgeries" of the WWII forgeries you mention in your comment, and while you might reject them, others add them to their collection, with full knowledge that they were produced right after WWII."
Those I do not reject. Actually, I even own a few.
"The somewhat recent deluge of scanned and photocopied fakes do not receive the same attention"
Maybe tomorrow I will do a write-up on the 6 & 12pf. forgeries.
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What is pure garbage today is likely to be someone's treasure 20, 50 or 100 years from now.
A forgery is not a forgery when you are either Yogi Berra or a philosopher.
Just had an interesting discussion a couple days back on another stamp board where a party started a thread asking for advice on selling what was clearly a reprint of Roman States stamp block. I first called it a forgery/fake, then recanted later saying it was a reprint, but the overall affect was the same - little value. It just a matter of semantics sometimes.
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"What is pure garbage today is likely to be someone's treasure 20, 50 or 100 years from now."
While this may have some validity I tend to doubt it!
The Forgers of old were artists! Many of today’s forgers just scan and print or use lithography. Unlike Fournier, Spiro and Sperati (to name a few) who actually engraved plates. Many of their forgeries are so good they are almost impossible to tell apart. In a few cases they are even better engraved and printed than the originals! So, when you but a "classic" forgery you may be buying a forgery, but it can still be appreciated as a true miniature work of art. I will stand by my statement of "Pure Garbage." But, I will agree with you that yes it could happen and also sometimes semantics does play a roll.
"I first called it a forgery/fake, then recanted later saying it was a reprint"
Yes, the effect is the same. But definition is not the same. A fake is just that a bogus stamp. While a reprint is normally printed by legitimate means and normally by official sources(though not always) and using original plates.
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12:46:46pm
I agree about the old forgeries. For me as well, they make great space fillers for those stamps I'll never be about to purchase. I have three awesome forgeries of a few stamps that are 5 digit cv. With the exception of one, taking a glance at them without studying them, they could pass as the genuine thing. The work was fantastic.
Kelly
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The entire field of "suspicious" postage stamps is an intriguing
collection hobby in its own right.
Just as internet auction sites prove that there is a buyer for almost
every item for sale, regardless of how spurious or odd, it is reasonable to
conclude that many of the bidders are "collectors".
Howard Hughes collected his nail clippings, some collect navel lint,
and I collect stories of collectors who collect the unusual.
On Judgement Day, when I am asked what on earth I did to
improve the human condition, I'll never stop talking.
John Derry
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10:52:33pm
" ... .Those are the pure garbage I wouldn't soil my Forgery collection with! ..."
The latter is your privilege. The former your opinion.
Were I to have a collection of Forgeries, Reprints and WW II Propaganda Stamps I'd probably include it so that I could illustrate what some might try to pass off as a rare example of valid items.
People collect what interests them and usually don't make all encompassing statements about your collecting habits. I hope, anyway.
What interests them, for what ever reason is their business, just as your interest in what interests you is your business.
On the other hand, it is in the hobby's best interest to identify philatelic scams and items vastly over priced, or promoted, to the unwary, and it may be difficult to control one's disdain for certain items, but to someone, somewhere the strangest things have a value and an intrest.
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When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
A very simple answer.
When a reproduced stamp has Falsh,False,Forgery or Facsimile printed on the front of the stamp.
Although it is a forgery. It is not a forgery
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When is a forgery not a forgery?
When you are the last human on Earth and there is nobody left to fool. Kinda like the proverbial tree in the forest.
Lars
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07:36:59am
The query reminds me of the; "Incorrectly spelled correctly is incorrectly"
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09:22:16pm
I was on eBay and again someone is trying to sell garbage to the uninformed. Hence the following post.
I pose the question, when is a Forgery not a Forgery?
Answer: When it is Germany Michel # PFa17, known to most as “The Hitler Skull Stamp.â€
While considered a Propaganda forgery. It is actually not a forgery at all. It was the brainchild of General "Wild Bill" Donovan, head of the OSS (Office of Strategic Services) the U.S. Army espionage agency during World War II. It was designed to mimic the original where a forgery is meant to defraud or deceive. They were never put on any mail but in letters that were dropped in mail bags from the air near bombed trains. The letters ware addressed to the families of soldiers that were killed in action.
Printed in sheets of 50, Perforated, 11, 12½:11½, 12½ and Imperforate
The “Original Forgery"
This is a true Forgery. Printed to the detriment of collectors.
Notice the difference in the jaw line.
The format is also incorrect. These were never printed in minature sheets.
These are often sold as proof's. Make no mistake they are worthless modern fakes.
Login to Like
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11:30:24pm
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
Well, mostly agree. But wortheless? Some people collect the forgeries, at least the earlier ones of these which I believe were not photocopied.
The purveyors of this stuff prey on the unwitting. And it seems that eBay rarely removes fake stamps anymore.
I knew about the "real" ones but I thought a few made it on to mail, presumably placed there by very brave resistance people in the Third Reich. Could be apocryphal info though.
Bruce
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12:26:34am
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
"But wortheless? Some people collect the forgeries, at least the earlier ones of these which I believe were not photocopied."
Yes, they are worthless garbage. I have been collecting War and Postal Forgeries for several decades. These are junk. The true forgeries of these were made shortly after the war and are Typographed as are the originals. They differ in that the 12 on the left is incorrect. The "1" is to thick and the "2" droops down and it ends in a ball. On the 2nd type the "1" is narrower at the bottom than it is at the top. The 3rd type is the modern one shown and is completely wrong.
"I thought a few made it on to mail"
There are a few covers that have been expertised with good certificates. However, there is much debate as to the authenticity of these. There are fewer than a dozen of these. Numerous covers do still exist from the "drops" with contents intact.
Login to Like
this post
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
I think this is good info, Revstampman, but the opener "when is a forgery a forgery etc." really does not do the topic justice. I believe there is near unanimous consent that the Hitler skull stamp is a forgery. Specifically, as you say, it is an American forgery of the contemporaneous 12 pf. Hitler definitive stamp. It is listed in the war and propaganda forgeries section of the Michel catalog and I do not question that judgment. I could see how someone could argue that the stamp is so dissimilar to the original that it represents a propaganda label more than a stamp, but that is not your argument.
This stamp is listed only in mint in Michel. Michel is meticulous, but not free of error, but generally I would take this for an indication that the stamp is not know in used condition. Michel is silent on the purpose of this stamp. I think it would be great to see one of the envelopes with this stamp you report exist.
Two other American war forgeries have been used on the envelopes dropped in mail bags, you mention. These:
These American war forgeries are readily available in mint. Obviously, the quantity produced outstripped the need, plus the end of the war made the stamps obsolete.
All of these stamps used on envelopes have fake cancellations (Vienna and Hannover) to go with the fake stamps. Here is a cover with the 12 Pf. and a Hannover cancel. I lifted this from the catalog of a German auction house where this cover sold in December for 220 EUR.
As for the plethora of modern forgeries of the Hitler skull stamp, in sheets of one, four, eight, nine, other colors, imporforated etc. etc., agreed these are complete junk. I am sure many collectors have been fooled by them.
Well, good stuff, Revstampman. Thanks for posting.
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03:14:57pm
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
"I think it would be great to see one of the envelopes with this stamp you report exist."
I wish I had one to show you! The last one I saw was in a German Auction 7-8 years ago. Along with a note that the authenticity of the usage has been disputed by some experts. Therefore they would only guarantee that the cancel, Ink, stamp and envelope were consistent with the time. The cover did have 2 or 3 certificates with it as I recall.
I do have the 6 and 12pf. Hitler forgeries as well. Your are correct about the cancels. There are actually 5 cancels that were used on the dropped letters bearing those stamps. 4 were Wien (Vienna) and 1 from Hannover.
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07:53:56pm
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
"The true forgeries of these were made shortly after the war and are Typographed as are the originals. They differ in that the 12 on the left is incorrect. The "1" is to thick and the "2" droops down and it ends in a ball. On the 2nd type the "1" is narrower at the bottom than it is at the top. The 3rd type is the modern one shown and is completely wrong."
So, to be clear, my point was that some people collect those early "true forgeries" of the WWII forgeries you mention in your comment, and while you might reject them, others add them to their collection, with full knowledge that they were produced right after WWII. The somewhat recent deluge of scanned and photocopied fakes do not receive the same attention.
While the prices fetched for the "true forgeries" from post WWII don't rival the workmanship and prices obtained by the Dutch forger Han van Meegeren who imfamously forged master paintings (duping Hermann Goering, among others), those early ones are still, "collectible" to some.
Bruce
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09:35:17pm
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
"So, to be clear, my point was that some people collect those early "true forgeries" of the WWII forgeries you mention in your comment, and while you might reject them, others add them to their collection, with full knowledge that they were produced right after WWII."
Those I do not reject. Actually, I even own a few.
"The somewhat recent deluge of scanned and photocopied fakes do not receive the same attention"
Maybe tomorrow I will do a write-up on the 6 & 12pf. forgeries.
Login to Like
this post
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
What is pure garbage today is likely to be someone's treasure 20, 50 or 100 years from now.
A forgery is not a forgery when you are either Yogi Berra or a philosopher.
Just had an interesting discussion a couple days back on another stamp board where a party started a thread asking for advice on selling what was clearly a reprint of Roman States stamp block. I first called it a forgery/fake, then recanted later saying it was a reprint, but the overall affect was the same - little value. It just a matter of semantics sometimes.
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10:55:25am
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
"What is pure garbage today is likely to be someone's treasure 20, 50 or 100 years from now."
While this may have some validity I tend to doubt it!
The Forgers of old were artists! Many of today’s forgers just scan and print or use lithography. Unlike Fournier, Spiro and Sperati (to name a few) who actually engraved plates. Many of their forgeries are so good they are almost impossible to tell apart. In a few cases they are even better engraved and printed than the originals! So, when you but a "classic" forgery you may be buying a forgery, but it can still be appreciated as a true miniature work of art. I will stand by my statement of "Pure Garbage." But, I will agree with you that yes it could happen and also sometimes semantics does play a roll.
"I first called it a forgery/fake, then recanted later saying it was a reprint"
Yes, the effect is the same. But definition is not the same. A fake is just that a bogus stamp. While a reprint is normally printed by legitimate means and normally by official sources(though not always) and using original plates.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
15 Feb 2014
12:46:46pm
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
I agree about the old forgeries. For me as well, they make great space fillers for those stamps I'll never be about to purchase. I have three awesome forgeries of a few stamps that are 5 digit cv. With the exception of one, taking a glance at them without studying them, they could pass as the genuine thing. The work was fantastic.
Kelly
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
15 Feb 2014
09:33:35pm
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
The entire field of "suspicious" postage stamps is an intriguing
collection hobby in its own right.
Just as internet auction sites prove that there is a buyer for almost
every item for sale, regardless of how spurious or odd, it is reasonable to
conclude that many of the bidders are "collectors".
Howard Hughes collected his nail clippings, some collect navel lint,
and I collect stories of collectors who collect the unusual.
On Judgement Day, when I am asked what on earth I did to
improve the human condition, I'll never stop talking.
John Derry
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
14 Nov 2014
10:52:33pm
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
" ... .Those are the pure garbage I wouldn't soil my Forgery collection with! ..."
The latter is your privilege. The former your opinion.
Were I to have a collection of Forgeries, Reprints and WW II Propaganda Stamps I'd probably include it so that I could illustrate what some might try to pass off as a rare example of valid items.
People collect what interests them and usually don't make all encompassing statements about your collecting habits. I hope, anyway.
What interests them, for what ever reason is their business, just as your interest in what interests you is your business.
On the other hand, it is in the hobby's best interest to identify philatelic scams and items vastly over priced, or promoted, to the unwary, and it may be difficult to control one's disdain for certain items, but to someone, somewhere the strangest things have a value and an intrest.
Login to Like
this post
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
A very simple answer.
When a reproduced stamp has Falsh,False,Forgery or Facsimile printed on the front of the stamp.
Although it is a forgery. It is not a forgery
Login to Like
this post
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
When is a forgery not a forgery?
When you are the last human on Earth and there is nobody left to fool. Kinda like the proverbial tree in the forest.
Lars
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
21 Nov 2014
07:36:59am
re: When is a Forgery not a Forgery?
The query reminds me of the; "Incorrectly spelled correctly is incorrectly"
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