Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
It's also useful for making temporary labels on stocksheets or glassines, since you can write on the surface.
While I don't think I'll use it to mount anything expensive, it's an interesting possible alternative to the non-peelable modern hinges that we have these days. If you've tried it, what do you think?
Best
BG
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From my dicussions with the APS Sales DIvision regarding finding several sales books in circuits that I received with stamps mounted with this type of tape, the answer is that the jury is still out on this. There have been no long-term tests made to figure out what the long-term effect is with this tape on stamps. Yes, the tape peels easily when it is fresh, but what happens after the tape has been on a stamp for a year? 5 years? 10 years?. What happens to a stamp after the tape has been removed? Will th3e stamp begin exhibiting toning, gum damage at a time in the future??? Those questions have yet to be answered.
For me, I avoid any and all stamps that have been "hinged" with any tape.
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04:15:52am
" .... I avoid any and all stamps that have been "hinged" with any tape. ...."
A statement that I suspect most long time collectors would willingly endorse.
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I think I may do my own test with some inexpensive stamps. Compared to the gobs of sticky goo that I've been scraping off the backs of recent self-adhesives (I call it "stamp snot"), it seems pretty benign. Only time will tell, but it might take a long time to really tell for certain.
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OMG "stamp snot" I will never be able to look at self-adhesive gum the same way ever again! ROFLMBO!!!! funnneeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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I have found ( thru circuit books ) that the tape seems to work fine with Mint stamps. However I have found that the tape ruins used stamps !!!! I guess that it peals off easily from the gum on the mint stamps.
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I have use it for over 10 years. I am 100% satisfied. It adds tremendous flexibility to aesthetic considerations for your collections, as you can easily move stamps, and display pages as you want.
While early versions of the tape left a (minor and occasional) slight residue after a few years...residue that rubbed off very easily, like a eraser residue, by rubbing the back with your finger, my experience with the latest version is 100% positive. It seem completely harmless, leaves no residue (tested for almost 5 years now) and peels easily. This works perfectly on gummed stamps, leaving no mark on MNH, so you can mount your MNH (or M stamps) with no degradation to the stamp, you can move them around, and I even use them on all my mounts now, so all my mounts are affixed using 811 tape!
Note that it is a bit more tricky on used stamps, especially on porous heavy paper grain used stamps....as it can adhere to the fiber if one does not pay attention, but 99% of used stamps cause no problem. The trick (you will learn it quickly after a few errors..lol) is to peel the Scotch 811 "hinge" by lifting gently from a corner and slowly peeling it off at a diagonal...works like a charm...as well as the old removable hinges..but leaving no mark!
I called 3M many years ago, before they had met the photo safe ISO Standard 18916, talked to their engineers and was assured that is was acid free, safe and harmless to stamps.
Since then they have met the ISO 18916 standards, which is quite exhaustive.
Still and quite understandably, I will not use it directly on a very expensive stamp (always in a mount), but I do use it regularly on all stamps in my collections, and also on all my SOR Approval books. This allows me to use SOR pre-printed pages rather than expensive uni-plates or , and it also minimizes handling of stamps and simplifies inventory management which is a prime source of errors.
I currently have a roll of 811 in a standard 3M tape dispenser and I dispense it just like I would with regular tape. If you are ecology minded, you can even reuse it! So I am not using regular tape any more on my desk to avoid any confusion, and this is just fine!
By the way, I buy it from Amazon, as it may be hard to find in office supply stores, and there are less photography stores around, so you won't find it easily.
I know that the stamp collector purists will always have doubts, certainly justified by past history (the stains left on stamps by early tape), but I for one am all for moving with technology and experimenting, and this technology seems to work perfectly, as far as my experience is concerned. Think about it, if technology had not moved ahead we would still be mounting stamps with glued paper hinges! This is just a step in our technological progress. What I would really like now, is for the glue technology used on 3M 811 tape to be used on stamp mounts, eliminating the wet and stick it approach, and also the single use limitation...plus no more torn pages if you ever want to move a mount! Anyone wants to start a new business?
rrr....
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"Michael: re For me, I avoid any and all stamps that have been "hinged" with any tape."
Unfortunately Michael, there is no scientific way to guarantee that any stamp that you get today has not been mounted using 3M 811 tape in its previous life.
While MNH should mean that, it does however refer to the fact that the Mint stamp has no hinge mark!
Any other assumption is wishful thinking, and even misleading.
rrr
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After seeing this thread on the use of the 811 scotch tape I thought I would give it a try since it would be so easy.
DO NOT USE IT!
I found that on older stamps that have softer paper than the new ones that the tape sticks too well to the fibers of the paper and will thin the stamp when trying to remove it. Also it does leave behind sticky residue on a lot of the stamps even if it does peel off. This I have found out after only about a week of having some mounted on pages.
I would imagine over time it will only get worse.
I will now go try to salvage what I can from over fifty pages of mounted stamps!
I learned the hard way again!
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One thing to remember for future. When trying something new, get some cheap, duplicate stamps and try it out on them first.
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Well Jim, you were warned about the use of 811 on older porous paper stamps:
"While early versions of the tape left a (minor and occasional) slight residue after a few years...residue that rubbed off very easily, like a eraser residue, by rubbing the back with your finger, my experience with the latest version is 100% positive. It seem completely harmless, leaves no residue (tested for almost 5 years now) and peels easily. This works perfectly on gummed stamps, leaving no mark on MNH, so you can mount your MNH (or M stamps) with no degradation to the stamp, you can move them around, and I even use them on all my mounts now, so all my mounts are affixed using 811 tape!
Note that it is a bit more tricky on used stamps, especially on porous heavy paper grain used stamps....as it can adhere to the fiber if one does not pay attention, but 99% of used stamps cause no problem. The trick (you will learn it quickly after a few errors..lol) is to peel the Scotch 811 "hinge" by lifting gently from a corner and slowly peeling it off at a diagonal...works like a charm...as well as the old removable hinges..but leaving no mark!"
They are hinges, not mounts, so any comparison is relative. Also how you remove a hinge is a trick you learn, whatever hinge you use!
I have been using them for over 5 years, and I still swear by them...but each one his own! They are still for my mind good for temporary use. I would never use hinges on any stamp...of any formulation... but I do make use of these as a substitute.
As far as residue is concerned, I noticed occasional on and off issues with changes in 3M's formulation over time, but if there is any residue at all it is very minor, and just rubs off with a stroke of the fingers. Often wondered if it was temperature dependant? Don't know.
Also, the latest batch of 811 tape is significantly thinner than before, so I have had hinges break...but then you just peel off the broken piece! I also found out that you can easily re-use them.
So again, I think it is a personal choice. I would really like a scientific and definitive pronouncement by the APS. But I find them in use in collections and displays, and I am still a fan, using them for extended (now as much as 5 years) but temporary use. Ideally all my stamps will be in mounts.
rrr...
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12:05:56am
" .... I would never use hinges on any stamp...of any formulation... but I do make use of these as a substitute. ...."
I will crtainly agree that abjuring hinges is a personal decision.
On the other hand, I suspect that a significant majority of collectors have, over the last 150 years and even now, used and continues to use hinges.
Probably somewhat fewer use them on mint stamps as well.
I have used, and intend to continue to use, hinges on both used and unused as well as souvenir sheetlets and booklet panes from my penny black and Us 3s 1 & 2.
If some subsequent owner of my stamps is unhappy about that he can come to my graveside and complain.
So while mounts are popular with many collectors it is up to the modern user to decide for him or her self how to mount their stamps. Mounts are not the universal choice. In fact, every stamp dealer I can ever recall visiting has had a box of hinges available to sell. There have been a few dealers who (At least at theat moment.) did not have or did not carry mounts.
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"I would really like a scientific and definitive pronouncement by the APS."
Any such "scientific and definitive pronouncement" about the advisability of using hinges would be useful only for the brands and specific batches that were tested. Any formulation of anything that is used today will probably be different tomorrow, and there simply is no way to know the very-long-term effect of any formulation of anything on any substance. We can only make guesses based on small samples and adequate testing of individual products.
A few years ago, a woman from the Vancouver Archives spoke to my stamp club about paper conservation. One of her messages was that all adhesives leave residue on paper, and that no one can know how that adhesive might eventually degrade the paper. Another significant point she made was that all paper becomes degraded over time, and there's nothing that can be done to preserve it over the very long haul.
Bob
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Thanks for the info on 3M 811. Has anyone used this tape for mounting Hawid or Showguard style mounts instead of water activation? I was concerned with bulk on the album page, but would like to reuse mounts, especially for those definitive issues studies that require periodic album page changes.
Any thoughts? Thanks!
Regards,
Don
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Don,
I have the same problem: how to re-use Hawid and Showguard type mounts. In most cases there is enough adhesive remaining, especially if the bottom half had not been previously used. In the remaining cases, I'm experimenting with careful use of a glue stick. Tonight I will check it for acidity. I thought about double-stick take for about 1/10 of a second. After seeing the ugly brown residue from sticky tape after a few years, I will not put it anywhere my stamps!
The 811 tape probably wouldn't work on the mounts. It is not double sided, so you would need to create a double-plus thickness loop. Even then, I doubt the tape has the long-term griping strength we need. Think of the 811 tape as basically a long strip thin Post-It note. It is designed to be slightly tacky but then release easily.
The comment by jkm0644 above is accurate for older or damaged stamps. In my testing with some old stamps damaged by thins, tears, or hinge-removal abrasion, the 811 tape did pull off additional tiny bits. Again, think of a Post-It note: if that would cause damage, the 811 tape might as well. In no case did the 811 tape damage a sound stamp. Now my experience is not that deep or long. Fewer than 100 stamps with no long-term observations.
Steve
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Excellent info, Steve. I do appreciate it. I think that I will try to work with my mounts and less water activation. I am having to redo several album leaves and those mounts can get pricey. I plan to do this album properly and I've been working on my style for a few months. when I get the templates and stamps in place I will post a few pages.
I am greatly indebted to Larsdog for his work in putting his entire US collection on the Internets... He has given me a few ideas for my own path. 
Happy New Year!
Don
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One further comment. It seems that 3M has changed the formulation. It uses thinner tape, which occasionally breaks when you bend it, hinge like, and there seems to be a new issue with residue.
While the breaking is an annoyance, the residue is a worry.
I compared older 811 to the newer one, bought from Amazon. The newer formulation is inferior. I am most concerned about the residue. I will be contacting 3M to clarify what is going on.
rrr...
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Ralph --
I'll be interested in learning what you hear back from them, if anything, about the reformulation.
Based on the discussion here, I did order a roll (through Staples, free delivery to the store). I'm still undecided about how I will ultimately use it, but I have started using it in place of conventional tape when I need to tape a glassine in an outgoing stamp purchase).
Please keep us posted as you learn more.
-- Dave
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Dave: I reported the perceived change to the 811 tape composition to 3M
Here is the on going correspondence (edited)
3M customer service, Office Products:
Original Message Follows------------|
Subject = 3M 811 Scotch tape Great concern
Message = You seem to have changed your formulation. The newer tape is thinner, breaks when used, and of greatest concern for my usage, it now leaves a residue when removed. This is unacceptable, a potentially harmful effect and I need confirmation of what is going on, and what you plan to do about it.
I used to purchase my tape at Office depot. I now purchase it from Amazon.
---------------------------------
Dear Ralph,
Thank you for contacting 3M, the innovation company, Stationery & Office Supplies Division.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. Without having the product in hand, it is difficult to explain the reason why this might be happening.
We have not changed our formulation on the 811 Tape. If you are purchasing from Amazon it might be old tape.
Your comments and observations about the product will be forwarded to both our marketing and manufacturing groups. We value your continued loyalty to 3M Products.
----------------------
My response: Thanks for your prompt response.
I use the 811 extensively, in temporary and long term philatelic usage. I buy it 2-packs at a time or more (usually I will buy 4 rolls at a time) from Amazon now.
The latest unopened rolls purchased have the following code: 5113520968
I can assure you that the tape is different than what I have been using satisfactorily for years.
1: It breaks. I usually bend a small piece to use as a hinge to attach stamps to pages.
While this is not critical, as I can still remove the broken piece, it is an annoyance.
I am guessing the tape is thinner and of a different formulation.
2. It leaves a residue. This is a MAJOR issue. This was not the case before (except very minor). This is not tied to temperature.
If it is "photo Safe" I presume this is also a major issue for photographers, as stacked photos will now stick to one another, and this may need to be tested by your lab. For stamps this is critical.
Unless Amazon is selling counterfeit tape, I cannot believe that it is the same product I have use for years. Quite frankly, I can assure you that it feels and act differently. The tape breaking alone is strange by itself. The increased residue is critical.
I can easily remove some of the tape I used 5 years ago and send it to your lab for comparative testing, and I can send you what is left of the roll I now own.
Ralph
PS: Latest batch purchased from Amazon: 4 rolls, probably just a few months ago. (can check exact date if you need) Label number on remaining the two pack unopened rolls (811-2pk): 51135 20968
When I had first started using 811 for this type of usage, I talked to your technical and engineering staff, and was assured that it was acid free, safe, and while it had not been tested for a very long time, they felt it was safe to use on stamps. I have been using it and advising others to use it as well, now for more than 5 years.
I am most concerned about the permanent loss of valuable philatelic material, should these problems be endemic, structural or chemical, rather than a one time accident.
-------------------------
Dave: I will be sending samples for analysis, and I will report back.
By the way, I went and checked quickly on tape used by me, as far back as 5+ years ago...and there are no perceived problems.
rrr...
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Thanks for going to the trouble to post this, Ralph. I really appreciate it, and I imagine there would be others here, too, who appreciate it.
As I mentioned already, I am just using it for light packing purposes right now, where it does a good job, but I had been considering some additional philatelic uses, so I will await the next episode in this unfolding saga.
Thanks for your efforts on this!
-- Dave
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I only use 3M double-sided tape to mount illustrations I have printed for album and exhibit pages, and (sometimes) to mount Hawid mounts that have been used previously and are missing some of their gum. I too have noticed that the tape has changed. It does seem thinner, and a lot tougher to cut. I can't imagine that 3M would ever reveal its formulas, nor is it likely that the company uses the same formulas over time, or that they would ever provide useful responses to queries. I just don't trust large corporations.
Bob
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I bet the answer to this is that the suppliers have outsourced the production to a third party and the quality control people don't have a handle on it yet.
I used to work in a warehouse for a major UK retailer ( which had better remain nameless -also the field in which it worked ).The company issued a spec and invited competitive tenders and always chose the cheapest ( naturally). There were occasions when the winning company's product was substandard, upon which the product had to be recalled from the stores ( at the tenderers expense) with great inconvenience to the company, and the customers.
My son is a senior procurement manager (buying both raw materials and manufactured product) for a company( which had also better remain nameless) whose products are not a million miles removed from some of the products sold by your supplier - and because of the wide inventory they carry, some products have to be bought in - and it should be noted that in the chemicals field some products ( and their components) are potentially hazardous. Quality control and testing of products is a major concern - and major activity. They appear to be on top of it, but it only needs a minor slip by someone.........
Malcolm
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Hi Everyone;
I worked as a Manufacturing Engineer for several years, and had to teach managers what
Quality Control was really all about.
Step one make sure you can produce something the same way twice in a row. I never make
my chili the same way twice, I like it that way, BUT I could never sell it as a product. Managers
never get this, that you can't make a change if the target is always moving.
When you achieve consistent results, even if wrong, then you can make a change to improve
a process. Don't try too much change until you see how well the changes affect quality. Finally
continue to add tweaks, and its is okay to find ways to make cheaper, without affecting quality.
Never have it made in China, unless your making a batch of chili. That nation's officials do not
like quality people checking up on them. I think it must be some kind of cultural pride thing or
something, or just communist snobbery.
@ Malcolm;
What you call outsourcing, we used to refer to as "Charlie Cheaper Disease".
Keep on Stampin'
TuskenRaider
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I am a retired 3M employee that worked in product development for more than 20 years and in technical service for a couple of years after that. I suspect the commenters that had been in manufacturing have hit the nail on the head. We always qualified more than one raw materials supplier because you never know when one may go out of business or be acquired by a competitor. Our qualification process was vigorous to assure that the specifications met the criteria of our target market.
Unfortunately, philately is not the target market for this product so the testing standards will never be set according to stamp collecting criteria. Unfortunately also, the philately market is undoubtedly too small to make a profit if the standards were tightened to meet the stringent criteria serious collectors want.
Product developers and tech service reps often have a push-pull relationship with marketers who would like to increase sales by increasing the number of way a product can be used and with manufacturing engineers who would like to increase profitability by finding ways to make a product less expensively. "Off-label" uses (uses the product was never designed for) are generally not discouraged but are at the users discretion and risk. If the market were large enough perhaps product claims for the new use would be documented, raw material criteria changed, and testing standards adjusted to meet the needs of that use. This can be quite expensive and is not often done if the consumer is willing to purchase the product and assume the risks without it.
I always felt good about the quality of the products I was involved with at 3M and 3M's business practices are well-respected. Not all manufacturers are as concerned with quality and backing up their claims as 3M is.
That being said, this has been just a small glimpse behind the curtain concerning how just about everything you have is produced.
Karen aka kehess, a nerdy lab-rat.
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I'm not sure if this is the same tape, but several years ago a member of my stamp club claimed he found a tape that can be used as a hinge. He used it extensively in his collection. He died a few years ago and left a portion of his collection to the club. I am finding that the stamps mounted using this tape do leave a residue. It is not bad and there is no staining. I was removing stamps (nothing valuable) from the pages and putting them in a pile. When I went to separate the stamps in the pile they were sticking together. It is almost like the stamps have a static charge. I was able to separate them easily without damage but they still have a cling. I don't know anyone who would want them for their collection. I have not tried soaking them yet to see if that removes it.
Bob
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Bob, that slightly sticky residue after a long period of time that you describe sounds like what I experience with old Post-It notes, and further reinforces that analogy in my mind. So probably okay for short term use, but probably not for long term.
The short term use I have in mind is arranging stamps on a page before mounting them with hinges. The 811 tape will let me move the stamps around until I get them just right. It would even give me a month or two to do so in case I need to find a new stamp to fill a gap.
Steve
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A reminder about my earlier post in this thread: A paper conservator from the Vancouver Archive, speaking to my stamp club, warned against using any adhesive materials, except for good quality stamp hinges, to mount stamps or covers. She said that all of them will leave residue which may not be obvious for decades. That makes sense to me: any material which sticks to anything is likely to leave remnants of itself when it's removed.
Bob
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"A reminder about my earlier post in this thread: A paper conservator from the Vancouver Archive, speaking to my stamp club, warned against using any adhesive materials, except for good quality stamp hinges, to mount stamps or covers. She said that all of them will leave residue which may not be obvious for decades. That makes sense to me: any material which sticks to anything is likely to leave remnants of itself when it's removed."
Now, we just have to find 'good quality stamp hinges'
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While nothing will beat the good ol' Dennison hinges, I currently am using the Supersafe hinges by Vidiforms (the Showgard people). I have also used the Prinz hinges. From what I have seen, both brands are about the same quality. I try to use as little moisture as possible on small flap that gets attached to the stamp. They work about as good as it gets for today's philatelic world.
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Prinz, Michael? Holy crap, I will NEVER touch another PRINZ hinge in my life... EVER! I had a bag of them in storage (along with some Supersafe's), never been opened, so you'd think even in storage they should be fine. I opened the bag, and start trying to attach the Prinz hinges...
Not a SINGLE hinge would adhere to ANY stamp. It was basically a "new" bag that had NO glue on any single hinge. I think they were only about a year old (but again, the bag was never opened), and basically a total loss of purchasing money.
I've sworn myself off of ever touching any more Prinz's in this lifetime.
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While I know all too well the damage that cellophane tape can do to stamps, I wonder if anyone else has tried using Scotch 811 Removable Tape as hinges? I learned about it from another member of the ISWSC (Int'l Society of Worldwide Stamp Collectors) who was using this to mount stamps for trading. It holds well, yet peels away easily & cleanly, with no residue. It's photo safe and acid-free (ISO Standard 18916, which tests samples for accelerated aging in a high-temp, high humidity environment). And you can use it on mint stamps, and it doesn't leave a mark on the back.
It's also useful for making temporary labels on stocksheets or glassines, since you can write on the surface.
While I don't think I'll use it to mount anything expensive, it's an interesting possible alternative to the non-peelable modern hinges that we have these days. If you've tried it, what do you think?
Best
BG
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
From my dicussions with the APS Sales DIvision regarding finding several sales books in circuits that I received with stamps mounted with this type of tape, the answer is that the jury is still out on this. There have been no long-term tests made to figure out what the long-term effect is with this tape on stamps. Yes, the tape peels easily when it is fresh, but what happens after the tape has been on a stamp for a year? 5 years? 10 years?. What happens to a stamp after the tape has been removed? Will th3e stamp begin exhibiting toning, gum damage at a time in the future??? Those questions have yet to be answered.
For me, I avoid any and all stamps that have been "hinged" with any tape.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
26 Jun 2014
04:15:52am
re: Scotch 811 hinges
" .... I avoid any and all stamps that have been "hinged" with any tape. ...."
A statement that I suspect most long time collectors would willingly endorse.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
I think I may do my own test with some inexpensive stamps. Compared to the gobs of sticky goo that I've been scraping off the backs of recent self-adhesives (I call it "stamp snot"), it seems pretty benign. Only time will tell, but it might take a long time to really tell for certain.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
OMG "stamp snot" I will never be able to look at self-adhesive gum the same way ever again! ROFLMBO!!!! funnneeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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01:07:58pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
I have found ( thru circuit books ) that the tape seems to work fine with Mint stamps. However I have found that the tape ruins used stamps !!!! I guess that it peals off easily from the gum on the mint stamps.
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
26 Jun 2014
08:18:07pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
I have use it for over 10 years. I am 100% satisfied. It adds tremendous flexibility to aesthetic considerations for your collections, as you can easily move stamps, and display pages as you want.
While early versions of the tape left a (minor and occasional) slight residue after a few years...residue that rubbed off very easily, like a eraser residue, by rubbing the back with your finger, my experience with the latest version is 100% positive. It seem completely harmless, leaves no residue (tested for almost 5 years now) and peels easily. This works perfectly on gummed stamps, leaving no mark on MNH, so you can mount your MNH (or M stamps) with no degradation to the stamp, you can move them around, and I even use them on all my mounts now, so all my mounts are affixed using 811 tape!
Note that it is a bit more tricky on used stamps, especially on porous heavy paper grain used stamps....as it can adhere to the fiber if one does not pay attention, but 99% of used stamps cause no problem. The trick (you will learn it quickly after a few errors..lol) is to peel the Scotch 811 "hinge" by lifting gently from a corner and slowly peeling it off at a diagonal...works like a charm...as well as the old removable hinges..but leaving no mark!
I called 3M many years ago, before they had met the photo safe ISO Standard 18916, talked to their engineers and was assured that is was acid free, safe and harmless to stamps.
Since then they have met the ISO 18916 standards, which is quite exhaustive.
Still and quite understandably, I will not use it directly on a very expensive stamp (always in a mount), but I do use it regularly on all stamps in my collections, and also on all my SOR Approval books. This allows me to use SOR pre-printed pages rather than expensive uni-plates or , and it also minimizes handling of stamps and simplifies inventory management which is a prime source of errors.
I currently have a roll of 811 in a standard 3M tape dispenser and I dispense it just like I would with regular tape. If you are ecology minded, you can even reuse it! So I am not using regular tape any more on my desk to avoid any confusion, and this is just fine!
By the way, I buy it from Amazon, as it may be hard to find in office supply stores, and there are less photography stores around, so you won't find it easily.
I know that the stamp collector purists will always have doubts, certainly justified by past history (the stains left on stamps by early tape), but I for one am all for moving with technology and experimenting, and this technology seems to work perfectly, as far as my experience is concerned. Think about it, if technology had not moved ahead we would still be mounting stamps with glued paper hinges! This is just a step in our technological progress. What I would really like now, is for the glue technology used on 3M 811 tape to be used on stamp mounts, eliminating the wet and stick it approach, and also the single use limitation...plus no more torn pages if you ever want to move a mount! Anyone wants to start a new business?
rrr....
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
26 Jun 2014
08:29:51pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
"Michael: re For me, I avoid any and all stamps that have been "hinged" with any tape."
Unfortunately Michael, there is no scientific way to guarantee that any stamp that you get today has not been mounted using 3M 811 tape in its previous life.
While MNH should mean that, it does however refer to the fact that the Mint stamp has no hinge mark!
Any other assumption is wishful thinking, and even misleading.
rrr
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05:59:37pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
After seeing this thread on the use of the 811 scotch tape I thought I would give it a try since it would be so easy.
DO NOT USE IT!
I found that on older stamps that have softer paper than the new ones that the tape sticks too well to the fibers of the paper and will thin the stamp when trying to remove it. Also it does leave behind sticky residue on a lot of the stamps even if it does peel off. This I have found out after only about a week of having some mounted on pages.
I would imagine over time it will only get worse.
I will now go try to salvage what I can from over fifty pages of mounted stamps!
I learned the hard way again!
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
One thing to remember for future. When trying something new, get some cheap, duplicate stamps and try it out on them first.
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
16 Dec 2014
10:51:36pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
Well Jim, you were warned about the use of 811 on older porous paper stamps:
"While early versions of the tape left a (minor and occasional) slight residue after a few years...residue that rubbed off very easily, like a eraser residue, by rubbing the back with your finger, my experience with the latest version is 100% positive. It seem completely harmless, leaves no residue (tested for almost 5 years now) and peels easily. This works perfectly on gummed stamps, leaving no mark on MNH, so you can mount your MNH (or M stamps) with no degradation to the stamp, you can move them around, and I even use them on all my mounts now, so all my mounts are affixed using 811 tape!
Note that it is a bit more tricky on used stamps, especially on porous heavy paper grain used stamps....as it can adhere to the fiber if one does not pay attention, but 99% of used stamps cause no problem. The trick (you will learn it quickly after a few errors..lol) is to peel the Scotch 811 "hinge" by lifting gently from a corner and slowly peeling it off at a diagonal...works like a charm...as well as the old removable hinges..but leaving no mark!"
They are hinges, not mounts, so any comparison is relative. Also how you remove a hinge is a trick you learn, whatever hinge you use!
I have been using them for over 5 years, and I still swear by them...but each one his own! They are still for my mind good for temporary use. I would never use hinges on any stamp...of any formulation... but I do make use of these as a substitute.
As far as residue is concerned, I noticed occasional on and off issues with changes in 3M's formulation over time, but if there is any residue at all it is very minor, and just rubs off with a stroke of the fingers. Often wondered if it was temperature dependant? Don't know.
Also, the latest batch of 811 tape is significantly thinner than before, so I have had hinges break...but then you just peel off the broken piece! I also found out that you can easily re-use them.
So again, I think it is a personal choice. I would really like a scientific and definitive pronouncement by the APS. But I find them in use in collections and displays, and I am still a fan, using them for extended (now as much as 5 years) but temporary use. Ideally all my stamps will be in mounts.
rrr...
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
17 Dec 2014
12:05:56am
re: Scotch 811 hinges
" .... I would never use hinges on any stamp...of any formulation... but I do make use of these as a substitute. ...."
I will crtainly agree that abjuring hinges is a personal decision.
On the other hand, I suspect that a significant majority of collectors have, over the last 150 years and even now, used and continues to use hinges.
Probably somewhat fewer use them on mint stamps as well.
I have used, and intend to continue to use, hinges on both used and unused as well as souvenir sheetlets and booklet panes from my penny black and Us 3s 1 & 2.
If some subsequent owner of my stamps is unhappy about that he can come to my graveside and complain.
So while mounts are popular with many collectors it is up to the modern user to decide for him or her self how to mount their stamps. Mounts are not the universal choice. In fact, every stamp dealer I can ever recall visiting has had a box of hinges available to sell. There have been a few dealers who (At least at theat moment.) did not have or did not carry mounts.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
"I would really like a scientific and definitive pronouncement by the APS."
Any such "scientific and definitive pronouncement" about the advisability of using hinges would be useful only for the brands and specific batches that were tested. Any formulation of anything that is used today will probably be different tomorrow, and there simply is no way to know the very-long-term effect of any formulation of anything on any substance. We can only make guesses based on small samples and adequate testing of individual products.
A few years ago, a woman from the Vancouver Archives spoke to my stamp club about paper conservation. One of her messages was that all adhesives leave residue on paper, and that no one can know how that adhesive might eventually degrade the paper. Another significant point she made was that all paper becomes degraded over time, and there's nothing that can be done to preserve it over the very long haul.
Bob
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Thanks for the info on 3M 811. Has anyone used this tape for mounting Hawid or Showguard style mounts instead of water activation? I was concerned with bulk on the album page, but would like to reuse mounts, especially for those definitive issues studies that require periodic album page changes.
Any thoughts? Thanks!
Regards,
Don
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Don,
I have the same problem: how to re-use Hawid and Showguard type mounts. In most cases there is enough adhesive remaining, especially if the bottom half had not been previously used. In the remaining cases, I'm experimenting with careful use of a glue stick. Tonight I will check it for acidity. I thought about double-stick take for about 1/10 of a second. After seeing the ugly brown residue from sticky tape after a few years, I will not put it anywhere my stamps!
The 811 tape probably wouldn't work on the mounts. It is not double sided, so you would need to create a double-plus thickness loop. Even then, I doubt the tape has the long-term griping strength we need. Think of the 811 tape as basically a long strip thin Post-It note. It is designed to be slightly tacky but then release easily.
The comment by jkm0644 above is accurate for older or damaged stamps. In my testing with some old stamps damaged by thins, tears, or hinge-removal abrasion, the 811 tape did pull off additional tiny bits. Again, think of a Post-It note: if that would cause damage, the 811 tape might as well. In no case did the 811 tape damage a sound stamp. Now my experience is not that deep or long. Fewer than 100 stamps with no long-term observations.
Steve
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Excellent info, Steve. I do appreciate it. I think that I will try to work with my mounts and less water activation. I am having to redo several album leaves and those mounts can get pricey. I plan to do this album properly and I've been working on my style for a few months. when I get the templates and stamps in place I will post a few pages.
I am greatly indebted to Larsdog for his work in putting his entire US collection on the Internets... He has given me a few ideas for my own path.
Happy New Year!
Don
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
31 Dec 2014
12:16:57am
re: Scotch 811 hinges
One further comment. It seems that 3M has changed the formulation. It uses thinner tape, which occasionally breaks when you bend it, hinge like, and there seems to be a new issue with residue.
While the breaking is an annoyance, the residue is a worry.
I compared older 811 to the newer one, bought from Amazon. The newer formulation is inferior. I am most concerned about the residue. I will be contacting 3M to clarify what is going on.
rrr...
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Ralph --
I'll be interested in learning what you hear back from them, if anything, about the reformulation.
Based on the discussion here, I did order a roll (through Staples, free delivery to the store). I'm still undecided about how I will ultimately use it, but I have started using it in place of conventional tape when I need to tape a glassine in an outgoing stamp purchase).
Please keep us posted as you learn more.
-- Dave
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
01 Jan 2015
04:16:54pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
Dave: I reported the perceived change to the 811 tape composition to 3M
Here is the on going correspondence (edited)
3M customer service, Office Products:
Original Message Follows------------|
Subject = 3M 811 Scotch tape Great concern
Message = You seem to have changed your formulation. The newer tape is thinner, breaks when used, and of greatest concern for my usage, it now leaves a residue when removed. This is unacceptable, a potentially harmful effect and I need confirmation of what is going on, and what you plan to do about it.
I used to purchase my tape at Office depot. I now purchase it from Amazon.
---------------------------------
Dear Ralph,
Thank you for contacting 3M, the innovation company, Stationery & Office Supplies Division.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. Without having the product in hand, it is difficult to explain the reason why this might be happening.
We have not changed our formulation on the 811 Tape. If you are purchasing from Amazon it might be old tape.
Your comments and observations about the product will be forwarded to both our marketing and manufacturing groups. We value your continued loyalty to 3M Products.
----------------------
My response: Thanks for your prompt response.
I use the 811 extensively, in temporary and long term philatelic usage. I buy it 2-packs at a time or more (usually I will buy 4 rolls at a time) from Amazon now.
The latest unopened rolls purchased have the following code: 5113520968
I can assure you that the tape is different than what I have been using satisfactorily for years.
1: It breaks. I usually bend a small piece to use as a hinge to attach stamps to pages.
While this is not critical, as I can still remove the broken piece, it is an annoyance.
I am guessing the tape is thinner and of a different formulation.
2. It leaves a residue. This is a MAJOR issue. This was not the case before (except very minor). This is not tied to temperature.
If it is "photo Safe" I presume this is also a major issue for photographers, as stacked photos will now stick to one another, and this may need to be tested by your lab. For stamps this is critical.
Unless Amazon is selling counterfeit tape, I cannot believe that it is the same product I have use for years. Quite frankly, I can assure you that it feels and act differently. The tape breaking alone is strange by itself. The increased residue is critical.
I can easily remove some of the tape I used 5 years ago and send it to your lab for comparative testing, and I can send you what is left of the roll I now own.
Ralph
PS: Latest batch purchased from Amazon: 4 rolls, probably just a few months ago. (can check exact date if you need) Label number on remaining the two pack unopened rolls (811-2pk): 51135 20968
When I had first started using 811 for this type of usage, I talked to your technical and engineering staff, and was assured that it was acid free, safe, and while it had not been tested for a very long time, they felt it was safe to use on stamps. I have been using it and advising others to use it as well, now for more than 5 years.
I am most concerned about the permanent loss of valuable philatelic material, should these problems be endemic, structural or chemical, rather than a one time accident.
-------------------------
Dave: I will be sending samples for analysis, and I will report back.
By the way, I went and checked quickly on tape used by me, as far back as 5+ years ago...and there are no perceived problems.
rrr...
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Thanks for going to the trouble to post this, Ralph. I really appreciate it, and I imagine there would be others here, too, who appreciate it.
As I mentioned already, I am just using it for light packing purposes right now, where it does a good job, but I had been considering some additional philatelic uses, so I will await the next episode in this unfolding saga.
Thanks for your efforts on this!
-- Dave
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
I only use 3M double-sided tape to mount illustrations I have printed for album and exhibit pages, and (sometimes) to mount Hawid mounts that have been used previously and are missing some of their gum. I too have noticed that the tape has changed. It does seem thinner, and a lot tougher to cut. I can't imagine that 3M would ever reveal its formulas, nor is it likely that the company uses the same formulas over time, or that they would ever provide useful responses to queries. I just don't trust large corporations.
Bob
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12:16:15pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
I bet the answer to this is that the suppliers have outsourced the production to a third party and the quality control people don't have a handle on it yet.
I used to work in a warehouse for a major UK retailer ( which had better remain nameless -also the field in which it worked ).The company issued a spec and invited competitive tenders and always chose the cheapest ( naturally). There were occasions when the winning company's product was substandard, upon which the product had to be recalled from the stores ( at the tenderers expense) with great inconvenience to the company, and the customers.
My son is a senior procurement manager (buying both raw materials and manufactured product) for a company( which had also better remain nameless) whose products are not a million miles removed from some of the products sold by your supplier - and because of the wide inventory they carry, some products have to be bought in - and it should be noted that in the chemicals field some products ( and their components) are potentially hazardous. Quality control and testing of products is a major concern - and major activity. They appear to be on top of it, but it only needs a minor slip by someone.........
Malcolm
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Hi Everyone;
I worked as a Manufacturing Engineer for several years, and had to teach managers what
Quality Control was really all about.
Step one make sure you can produce something the same way twice in a row. I never make
my chili the same way twice, I like it that way, BUT I could never sell it as a product. Managers
never get this, that you can't make a change if the target is always moving.
When you achieve consistent results, even if wrong, then you can make a change to improve
a process. Don't try too much change until you see how well the changes affect quality. Finally
continue to add tweaks, and its is okay to find ways to make cheaper, without affecting quality.
Never have it made in China, unless your making a batch of chili. That nation's officials do not
like quality people checking up on them. I think it must be some kind of cultural pride thing or
something, or just communist snobbery.
@ Malcolm;
What you call outsourcing, we used to refer to as "Charlie Cheaper Disease".
Keep on Stampin'
TuskenRaider
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05:25:51pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
I am a retired 3M employee that worked in product development for more than 20 years and in technical service for a couple of years after that. I suspect the commenters that had been in manufacturing have hit the nail on the head. We always qualified more than one raw materials supplier because you never know when one may go out of business or be acquired by a competitor. Our qualification process was vigorous to assure that the specifications met the criteria of our target market.
Unfortunately, philately is not the target market for this product so the testing standards will never be set according to stamp collecting criteria. Unfortunately also, the philately market is undoubtedly too small to make a profit if the standards were tightened to meet the stringent criteria serious collectors want.
Product developers and tech service reps often have a push-pull relationship with marketers who would like to increase sales by increasing the number of way a product can be used and with manufacturing engineers who would like to increase profitability by finding ways to make a product less expensively. "Off-label" uses (uses the product was never designed for) are generally not discouraged but are at the users discretion and risk. If the market were large enough perhaps product claims for the new use would be documented, raw material criteria changed, and testing standards adjusted to meet the needs of that use. This can be quite expensive and is not often done if the consumer is willing to purchase the product and assume the risks without it.
I always felt good about the quality of the products I was involved with at 3M and 3M's business practices are well-respected. Not all manufacturers are as concerned with quality and backing up their claims as 3M is.
That being said, this has been just a small glimpse behind the curtain concerning how just about everything you have is produced.
Karen aka kehess, a nerdy lab-rat.
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President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
06 Jan 2015
11:57:39am
re: Scotch 811 hinges
I'm not sure if this is the same tape, but several years ago a member of my stamp club claimed he found a tape that can be used as a hinge. He used it extensively in his collection. He died a few years ago and left a portion of his collection to the club. I am finding that the stamps mounted using this tape do leave a residue. It is not bad and there is no staining. I was removing stamps (nothing valuable) from the pages and putting them in a pile. When I went to separate the stamps in the pile they were sticking together. It is almost like the stamps have a static charge. I was able to separate them easily without damage but they still have a cling. I don't know anyone who would want them for their collection. I have not tried soaking them yet to see if that removes it.
Bob
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Bob, that slightly sticky residue after a long period of time that you describe sounds like what I experience with old Post-It notes, and further reinforces that analogy in my mind. So probably okay for short term use, but probably not for long term.
The short term use I have in mind is arranging stamps on a page before mounting them with hinges. The 811 tape will let me move the stamps around until I get them just right. It would even give me a month or two to do so in case I need to find a new stamp to fill a gap.
Steve
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
A reminder about my earlier post in this thread: A paper conservator from the Vancouver Archive, speaking to my stamp club, warned against using any adhesive materials, except for good quality stamp hinges, to mount stamps or covers. She said that all of them will leave residue which may not be obvious for decades. That makes sense to me: any material which sticks to anything is likely to leave remnants of itself when it's removed.
Bob
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
"A reminder about my earlier post in this thread: A paper conservator from the Vancouver Archive, speaking to my stamp club, warned against using any adhesive materials, except for good quality stamp hinges, to mount stamps or covers. She said that all of them will leave residue which may not be obvious for decades. That makes sense to me: any material which sticks to anything is likely to leave remnants of itself when it's removed."
Now, we just have to find 'good quality stamp hinges'
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
While nothing will beat the good ol' Dennison hinges, I currently am using the Supersafe hinges by Vidiforms (the Showgard people). I have also used the Prinz hinges. From what I have seen, both brands are about the same quality. I try to use as little moisture as possible on small flap that gets attached to the stamp. They work about as good as it gets for today's philatelic world.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Prinz, Michael? Holy crap, I will NEVER touch another PRINZ hinge in my life... EVER! I had a bag of them in storage (along with some Supersafe's), never been opened, so you'd think even in storage they should be fine. I opened the bag, and start trying to attach the Prinz hinges...
Not a SINGLE hinge would adhere to ANY stamp. It was basically a "new" bag that had NO glue on any single hinge. I think they were only about a year old (but again, the bag was never opened), and basically a total loss of purchasing money.
I've sworn myself off of ever touching any more Prinz's in this lifetime.
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