Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
02:58:08pm
Kelly
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Depends on how "tight" the margins are, and if they are tight on all 4 sides or only a couple.
Scott defines:
Fine = Imperforate stamps may have small margins, and earlier issues may show the design just touching one edge of the stamp design.
Fine-Very Fine = Imperforate stamps will have two margins of at least normal size, and the design will not touch any edge.
Of course, a picture trumps any written grade.
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Classic-period stamps are graded with more leniency because of their age. For the same reason, people go easy with me, recognizing that I too am a classic! 
I'd like to see an image of your stamp, but I suspect that it would be graded VF (Very Fine). Scott uses the convention of 1/4mm representing a "full margin" on classic stamps, so margins of that size or greater would result in a VF descriptor. But I'm certainly not an expert in classic issues, so someone else might want to weigh in.
Bob
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04:02:44pm
Thanks guys. I'll post an image tonight.
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Bob, where did you see that Scott uses the convention 1/4mm for full margins? I've only seen that note for some specific small margin stamps, but never as a general convention -- or did I miss a note in the Scott intro? That seems to be an amazingly small number as a general criteria for full margins. I've always used the criteria 1/2 the spacing between stamps for full margins. Anything less than that is simply a "clear margin" but not a "full margin".
Poodle_Mum, there are several 1855 issues, and I wasn't sure which one you were talking about. Please also cite a Scott catalog number when you post your pic. The Scott catalog does have a lot of footnotes indicating which early issues had "very small" margins and which ones had "moderate" margins. That will play an important part in the grade.
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The bit about 1/4mm borders comes from page 10A of my Scott 2004 Classic Specialized Catalogue of Stamps and Covers. It's in the section titled "Full Margins" and refers to the difficulties of grading classic issues, not modern issues.
Bob
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OK, thanks Bob.
What that phrase means is that 1/4mm is MINIMUM criteria in cases where half the spacing between stamps is less than 1/4mm.
But in general, 1/4mm is not sufficient condition to define a full margin (only in the case where half the spacing is less than that).
Scott uses the same general convention as others -- full margin is half the smallest spacing between stamps.
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05:05:43pm
Ok here is the stamp -
If it is a bit blurry it's because I made it slightly larger than the actual scan to try to define the borders.
Also - if anyone can tell me anything about the postmark, that would be great. My early Canada knowledge is very minimal.
**edited to remove Scott image in case of copyright infringement**
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Ha Ha. I had thought it might have been a US stamp!
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05:36:32pm
khj - Ha! Unlikely in *my* collection. Russia, Germany, Queen Victoria and Canada.
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I can see the thick border clearly, but hard to see the thin outer frame line.
But it's certainly at least F-VF.
Very nice stamp to have!!!
k
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That type of cancel is known as a "target cancel".
There should be an SoR article on fancy cancels somewhere.
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06:23:32pm
Thanks 
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I don't have my copy handy to double-check at the moment, but doesn't the Unitrade go into more detail about differences in grade, especially on classic-era stamps, and also provide prices reflecting those grading differences?
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"Scott Canada #5 (catalogue)"
A word of caution - I think it is copyright infringement to reproduce any part without permission.
I think Scott catalogue bases "grading" mostly on the centering (in the case of perforated stamps) or clear margins (for imperforate ones). Your stamp does seem to have four clear margins.
Stanley Gibbons is more realistic, and their introduction describes their grading standard as a combination of factors: Margins/Centering, Gum (for unused), and Cancellation. I see that the margins are not even on all sides, so I would classify this as Fine for the margins. The cancellation might go for Average or Fine, but a postmark enthusiast like myself will probably look at this one differently (especially if the postmark is special, which I cannot comment on).
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TP, to what you caution us regarding copyright. I could find nothing amiss
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05:43:50pm
David - I had posted a copy of the image from Scott catalogue to show what the stamp with their margins to compare with my own. Then I saw the comment re: infringement of copyright so I deleted it.
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thanks for explaining it. I doubt that would qualify as infringement, since you are merely "quoting" an image as a comparison, which, in my book, would qualify under the fair use exemption.
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"I doubt that would qualify as infringement, since you are merely "quoting" an image as a comparison, which, in my book, would qualify under the fair use exemption."
The image from the catalogue was posted here on the Discussion Board. Posting something on a public domain exceeds fair use, in my opinion.
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From the Copyright Act of 1976 (of course, this is US, but I'm guessing most copyright laws have a similar section):
"...the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright."
The image was posted for educational/non-profit purposes.
The image is just one of several thousand stamps shown in the Unitrade catalog.
I don't think Unitrade can copyright most of the stamp images in their catalog for numerous reasons.
The Unitrade editor is active on another board in which snippets of the Unitrade catalog get posted often. I've never seen him complain.
In my opinion, it was fair use of a very very very small part of the catalog. No different from quoting a Unitrade number and price from the catalog. If I were posting whole pages or complete sections from the Unitrade, that's a different story. My opinion.
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Just one thing to add to what Kim said is that all you have to do is credit the source, which Kelly did (image from Scott catalog).
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Here I was talking about Unitrade when the picture was from the Scott catalog.
Hmmm, I don't see the embarrassed smiley.
Scott primarily cares about their numbering system. They get upset when you post a whole sequence of their catalog numbers with pictures, even when you post them with your own pictures. A very well-known and well-established US stamp (non-sale) website found that out the hard way and actually got shut down for a brief period until they reached a Scott catalog number licensing agreement.
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05:41:47pm
This has certainly turned into an interesting discussion. I could have just as easily posted a picture from the Unitrade catalogue which no doubt is the same as that of the Scott catalogue. I figured since it was one picture and clearly identified as a "quote" from the catalogue and not a whole bunch of stuff, there was no infringement of copyright. In any case, I received the answer I was looking for. I figured if Scott was showing a picture with those margins, then my margins were good. When it comes to early stamps such as these, it is difficult to clarify the size of the margins. Where some stamps such as my Nova Scotia #2s and #3s, I have some that have quite wide margins but I've yet to see Canada #5 online with any margins of that size. So, I looked at the Scott catalogue and noticed that their stamp used for a sample has basically the exactly same size margins (perhaps a tad wider on the left side), then what would be considered Fine if it were a different stamp, it could possibly be considered VF due to this particular issue.
In any case, we've certainly had an interesting discussion come out of it. Thanks Kim and Michael and all other contributors.
Kelly
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15 Aug 2014
02:58:08pm
I'm curious about what grade you would consider a stamp that has 4 distinct yet tight margins on an 1855 stamps? The margins are clear of the border, cancellation is very nice - does not obliterate the stamp design.
Kelly
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
Depends on how "tight" the margins are, and if they are tight on all 4 sides or only a couple.
Scott defines:
Fine = Imperforate stamps may have small margins, and earlier issues may show the design just touching one edge of the stamp design.
Fine-Very Fine = Imperforate stamps will have two margins of at least normal size, and the design will not touch any edge.
Of course, a picture trumps any written grade.
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
Classic-period stamps are graded with more leniency because of their age. For the same reason, people go easy with me, recognizing that I too am a classic!
I'd like to see an image of your stamp, but I suspect that it would be graded VF (Very Fine). Scott uses the convention of 1/4mm representing a "full margin" on classic stamps, so margins of that size or greater would result in a VF descriptor. But I'm certainly not an expert in classic issues, so someone else might want to weigh in.
Bob
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
15 Aug 2014
04:02:44pm
re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
Thanks guys. I'll post an image tonight.
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
Bob, where did you see that Scott uses the convention 1/4mm for full margins? I've only seen that note for some specific small margin stamps, but never as a general convention -- or did I miss a note in the Scott intro? That seems to be an amazingly small number as a general criteria for full margins. I've always used the criteria 1/2 the spacing between stamps for full margins. Anything less than that is simply a "clear margin" but not a "full margin".
Poodle_Mum, there are several 1855 issues, and I wasn't sure which one you were talking about. Please also cite a Scott catalog number when you post your pic. The Scott catalog does have a lot of footnotes indicating which early issues had "very small" margins and which ones had "moderate" margins. That will play an important part in the grade.
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
The bit about 1/4mm borders comes from page 10A of my Scott 2004 Classic Specialized Catalogue of Stamps and Covers. It's in the section titled "Full Margins" and refers to the difficulties of grading classic issues, not modern issues.
Bob
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
OK, thanks Bob.
What that phrase means is that 1/4mm is MINIMUM criteria in cases where half the spacing between stamps is less than 1/4mm.
But in general, 1/4mm is not sufficient condition to define a full margin (only in the case where half the spacing is less than that).
Scott uses the same general convention as others -- full margin is half the smallest spacing between stamps.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
15 Aug 2014
05:05:43pm
re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
Ok here is the stamp -
If it is a bit blurry it's because I made it slightly larger than the actual scan to try to define the borders.
Also - if anyone can tell me anything about the postmark, that would be great. My early Canada knowledge is very minimal.
**edited to remove Scott image in case of copyright infringement**
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
Ha Ha. I had thought it might have been a US stamp!
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
15 Aug 2014
05:36:32pm
re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
khj - Ha! Unlikely in *my* collection. Russia, Germany, Queen Victoria and Canada.
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
I can see the thick border clearly, but hard to see the thin outer frame line.
But it's certainly at least F-VF.
Very nice stamp to have!!!
k
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
That type of cancel is known as a "target cancel".
There should be an SoR article on fancy cancels somewhere.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
15 Aug 2014
06:23:32pm
re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
Thanks
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
I don't have my copy handy to double-check at the moment, but doesn't the Unitrade go into more detail about differences in grade, especially on classic-era stamps, and also provide prices reflecting those grading differences?
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10:13:26pm
re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
"Scott Canada #5 (catalogue)"
A word of caution - I think it is copyright infringement to reproduce any part without permission.
I think Scott catalogue bases "grading" mostly on the centering (in the case of perforated stamps) or clear margins (for imperforate ones). Your stamp does seem to have four clear margins.
Stanley Gibbons is more realistic, and their introduction describes their grading standard as a combination of factors: Margins/Centering, Gum (for unused), and Cancellation. I see that the margins are not even on all sides, so I would classify this as Fine for the margins. The cancellation might go for Average or Fine, but a postmark enthusiast like myself will probably look at this one differently (especially if the postmark is special, which I cannot comment on).
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
TP, to what you caution us regarding copyright. I could find nothing amiss
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
16 Aug 2014
05:43:50pm
re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
David - I had posted a copy of the image from Scott catalogue to show what the stamp with their margins to compare with my own. Then I saw the comment re: infringement of copyright so I deleted it.
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
thanks for explaining it. I doubt that would qualify as infringement, since you are merely "quoting" an image as a comparison, which, in my book, would qualify under the fair use exemption.
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06:03:27pm
re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
"I doubt that would qualify as infringement, since you are merely "quoting" an image as a comparison, which, in my book, would qualify under the fair use exemption."
The image from the catalogue was posted here on the Discussion Board. Posting something on a public domain exceeds fair use, in my opinion.
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
From the Copyright Act of 1976 (of course, this is US, but I'm guessing most copyright laws have a similar section):
"...the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright."
The image was posted for educational/non-profit purposes.
The image is just one of several thousand stamps shown in the Unitrade catalog.
I don't think Unitrade can copyright most of the stamp images in their catalog for numerous reasons.
The Unitrade editor is active on another board in which snippets of the Unitrade catalog get posted often. I've never seen him complain.
In my opinion, it was fair use of a very very very small part of the catalog. No different from quoting a Unitrade number and price from the catalog. If I were posting whole pages or complete sections from the Unitrade, that's a different story. My opinion.
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
Just one thing to add to what Kim said is that all you have to do is credit the source, which Kelly did (image from Scott catalog).
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re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
Here I was talking about Unitrade when the picture was from the Scott catalog.
Hmmm, I don't see the embarrassed smiley.
Scott primarily cares about their numbering system. They get upset when you post a whole sequence of their catalog numbers with pictures, even when you post them with your own pictures. A very well-known and well-established US stamp (non-sale) website found that out the hard way and actually got shut down for a brief period until they reached a Scott catalog number licensing agreement.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
17 Aug 2014
05:41:47pm
re: Grading Imperf Canadian Stamps
This has certainly turned into an interesting discussion. I could have just as easily posted a picture from the Unitrade catalogue which no doubt is the same as that of the Scott catalogue. I figured since it was one picture and clearly identified as a "quote" from the catalogue and not a whole bunch of stuff, there was no infringement of copyright. In any case, I received the answer I was looking for. I figured if Scott was showing a picture with those margins, then my margins were good. When it comes to early stamps such as these, it is difficult to clarify the size of the margins. Where some stamps such as my Nova Scotia #2s and #3s, I have some that have quite wide margins but I've yet to see Canada #5 online with any margins of that size. So, I looked at the Scott catalogue and noticed that their stamp used for a sample has basically the exactly same size margins (perhaps a tad wider on the left side), then what would be considered Fine if it were a different stamp, it could possibly be considered VF due to this particular issue.
In any case, we've certainly had an interesting discussion come out of it. Thanks Kim and Michael and all other contributors.
Kelly
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