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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : Unknown Watermark ???

 

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Charlie2009
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25 Aug 2014
02:21:55am
I came across this in a recent purchase from Delcampe.SG: 97,1865/7,6d Lilac.This issue,amongst others,is known for "Watermark Errors".I have the Specialized Cat but this is not mentioned and I cannot find anything anywhere else.Has anyone come across another one like this ??Confused

http://ie.ebid.net/for-sale/35c-sg-97-w-pl-5-used-cat-131296406.htm



(Modified by Moderator on 2014-08-25 07:32:00)
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Charlie2009
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28 Aug 2014
04:52:55am
re: Unknown Watermark ???

Well this is getting better.I have contacted SG on the Helpline and this is what I'm told,and I quoteBig Grinear Anton,

Thank you for your email and for contacting Stanley Gibbons, we would be delighted to assist you!

Our specialists have reviewed your query and the scans that you provided.

In this instance, we believe this item to be SG84.

We hope that this information helps?

Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require any further assistance.

Kind regards,

Amy Pugsley
Stanley Gibbons Customer Support

Now if you go to the above link and look at the 3 scans you tell me is that SG:84???.SG:84 has small white letters.!
Could you please let me know if anyone has seen a stamp like this ?Thank you.

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Ningpo
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28 Aug 2014
07:06:44am
re: Unknown Watermark ???

I have looked at this in my old Stanley Gibbons British Commonwealth catalogue. It seems to me that Gibbons have mis-identified it and the seller is rather hopeful.

This looks like SG 97 (with hyphen; Plate 5). The watermark is not an error but is W20 (2 roses, 1 shamrock and a thistle).

As for the seller's interpretation of a half inverted watermark (the roses): I would have thought this is due to slight variations on the dandy roll.

Perhaps, the seller should have been more specific in his question to Gibbons and queried the top part of the watermark (the roses) to get them to open their eyes and offer an explanation. They can at times be rather lazy with these sort of queries.





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Charlie2009
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28 Aug 2014
07:34:55am
re: Unknown Watermark ???

You are quite right,however the normal Watermark has the rosettes pointing downwards not upwards.That' why I have given the normal watermark in the scan as well.

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Ningpo
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28 Aug 2014
07:37:28am
re: Unknown Watermark ???

Sorry, you replied while I was editing my reply. Please note my edited comment above.

By the way, I'd only be too pleased to be proved wrong.

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Charlie2009
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02 Sep 2014
06:32:59am
re: Unknown Watermark ???

After some more scans:

Amy Pugsley (Stanley Gibbons)
Sep 02 11:19

Dear Anton,

Thank you for your reply and for further scans.

Our specialists have reviewed these and believe this to be the standard SG97.

We hope that this helps?

Please do let us know if you have any further questions.

Well I have never seen a standard SG:97 wityh that kind of WMK,have you ???

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Ningpo
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02 Sep 2014
07:08:05pm
re: Unknown Watermark ???

I've made inquiries about this anomaly. One comment I've had back is.....

"The roses in the watermark do appear to be inverted, I've never seen this before. I would love to see the stamp first hand or at least have a high resolution scan of the back.

I'm very suspicious about it and having a hard look it appears the top ¼ has been overlayed.

If you look at your scan you will hopefully see what I mean."



There does in fact seem to be a visible line at the top of the stamp on both the front and back scans.

Have you been sent any hi-res scans that we could use?

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Charlie2009
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03 Sep 2014
01:54:08am
re: Unknown Watermark ???

Yes there would be a line across both back and front since it is in a stockcard.However I will make a PDF scan of 600DPI.

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Charlie2009
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03 Sep 2014
02:01:27am
re: Unknown Watermark ???

Image Not FoundCan't load a PDF file,so I made a 600DPI scan and sharpened it a bit:

Image Not Found
I hope that helps.

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Ningpo
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03 Sep 2014
06:11:37am
re: Unknown Watermark ???

Thanks for the clarification and the new scan. I have passed this on for comment.

I must say there seems no evidence of jiggery pokery based on the new image. But what do I know?

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Ningpo
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05 Sep 2014
03:54:56pm
re: Unknown Watermark ???

Having shown the hi-res scan, the response I got was:

"Well it certainly looks as though the roses are inverted.

I'm really intrigued but I still need convincing, it would certainly be worth getting an RPS certificate.

Fingers crossed it's as it seems."



I think this has caused a lot of head scratching. What bothers me is Stanley Gibbons rather feeble response. Okay, if they consider this to be a "standard SG97", why not volunteer a little explanation, as to how the roses of the watermark vary.

There seems to be an in-bred laziness towards ordinary collectors in SG these days. Had the enquiry come from a prominent dealer or high profile collector, perhaps things may have been different.

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Charlie2009
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06 Sep 2014
12:46:42pm
re: Unknown Watermark ???

How much would one of these certificates be I wonder ??

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Ningpo
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06 Sep 2014
03:55:48pm
re: Unknown Watermark ???

I'd imagine that there are other members here who would be better placed to answer. Much depends on who the expertising body is, whether they charge a percentage of it's catalogue value (bit difficult if it isn't even known). Or will they charge a fixed price. Is the 'body' providing the service acknowledged by the philatelic community? Note there are certain certification bodies/individuals who have a record of issuing bad certs.

Another question needs to be raised: why doesn't the seller get this expertised? Too lazy? Too poor? Not actually convinced himself?

Will he refund your money if a certificate paid for by you, comes back 'negative'?

Finally, are you in a position to have this looked at by a club or preferably a study group? The benefit here is that the strength of other's opinions might guide your decision whether to submit it or not.

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Charlie2009
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06 Sep 2014
04:44:16pm
re: Unknown Watermark ???

I have only bought this recently with a lot of other stamps and paid € 45.00 for the lot.I have since been advised that a RPS Cert should be about £ 50.00 but if further expertise is required it could cost substantially more, whatever that means.Now if this is indeed an unknown Wmk how can anyone get further expertise ? Anyway I'm going to go onto the RPS site tomorrow and see what's what.Thanks for the response.At least I know I'm not imagining things.I've been looking at stamps since '72 and have never seen one like it.

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Ningpo
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06 Sep 2014
05:57:42pm
re: Unknown Watermark ???

Well you kept that under your hat. So it wasn't a case of risking quite a lot of money on an unknown!

To my eyes you may have an absolute steal. Even if it's not what you hope it is, you won't need to beat yourself up about it.

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Charlie2009

25 Aug 2014
02:21:55am

I came across this in a recent purchase from Delcampe.SG: 97,1865/7,6d Lilac.This issue,amongst others,is known for "Watermark Errors".I have the Specialized Cat but this is not mentioned and I cannot find anything anywhere else.Has anyone come across another one like this ??Confused

http://ie.ebid.net/for-sale/35c-sg-97-w-pl-5-used-cat-131296406.htm



(Modified by Moderator on 2014-08-25 07:32:00)

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Charlie2009

28 Aug 2014
04:52:55am

re: Unknown Watermark ???

Well this is getting better.I have contacted SG on the Helpline and this is what I'm told,and I quoteBig Grinear Anton,

Thank you for your email and for contacting Stanley Gibbons, we would be delighted to assist you!

Our specialists have reviewed your query and the scans that you provided.

In this instance, we believe this item to be SG84.

We hope that this information helps?

Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require any further assistance.

Kind regards,

Amy Pugsley
Stanley Gibbons Customer Support

Now if you go to the above link and look at the 3 scans you tell me is that SG:84???.SG:84 has small white letters.!
Could you please let me know if anyone has seen a stamp like this ?Thank you.

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www.delcampe.net/en_ ...
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Ningpo

28 Aug 2014
07:06:44am

re: Unknown Watermark ???

I have looked at this in my old Stanley Gibbons British Commonwealth catalogue. It seems to me that Gibbons have mis-identified it and the seller is rather hopeful.

This looks like SG 97 (with hyphen; Plate 5). The watermark is not an error but is W20 (2 roses, 1 shamrock and a thistle).

As for the seller's interpretation of a half inverted watermark (the roses): I would have thought this is due to slight variations on the dandy roll.

Perhaps, the seller should have been more specific in his question to Gibbons and queried the top part of the watermark (the roses) to get them to open their eyes and offer an explanation. They can at times be rather lazy with these sort of queries.





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Charlie2009

28 Aug 2014
07:34:55am

re: Unknown Watermark ???

You are quite right,however the normal Watermark has the rosettes pointing downwards not upwards.That' why I have given the normal watermark in the scan as well.

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Ningpo

28 Aug 2014
07:37:28am

re: Unknown Watermark ???

Sorry, you replied while I was editing my reply. Please note my edited comment above.

By the way, I'd only be too pleased to be proved wrong.

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Charlie2009

02 Sep 2014
06:32:59am

re: Unknown Watermark ???

After some more scans:

Amy Pugsley (Stanley Gibbons)
Sep 02 11:19

Dear Anton,

Thank you for your reply and for further scans.

Our specialists have reviewed these and believe this to be the standard SG97.

We hope that this helps?

Please do let us know if you have any further questions.

Well I have never seen a standard SG:97 wityh that kind of WMK,have you ???

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Ningpo

02 Sep 2014
07:08:05pm

re: Unknown Watermark ???

I've made inquiries about this anomaly. One comment I've had back is.....

"The roses in the watermark do appear to be inverted, I've never seen this before. I would love to see the stamp first hand or at least have a high resolution scan of the back.

I'm very suspicious about it and having a hard look it appears the top ¼ has been overlayed.

If you look at your scan you will hopefully see what I mean."



There does in fact seem to be a visible line at the top of the stamp on both the front and back scans.

Have you been sent any hi-res scans that we could use?

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Charlie2009

03 Sep 2014
01:54:08am

re: Unknown Watermark ???

Yes there would be a line across both back and front since it is in a stockcard.However I will make a PDF scan of 600DPI.

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www.delcampe.net/en_ ...
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Charlie2009

03 Sep 2014
02:01:27am

re: Unknown Watermark ???

Image Not FoundCan't load a PDF file,so I made a 600DPI scan and sharpened it a bit:

Image Not Found
I hope that helps.

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www.delcampe.net/en_ ...
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Ningpo

03 Sep 2014
06:11:37am

re: Unknown Watermark ???

Thanks for the clarification and the new scan. I have passed this on for comment.

I must say there seems no evidence of jiggery pokery based on the new image. But what do I know?

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Ningpo

05 Sep 2014
03:54:56pm

re: Unknown Watermark ???

Having shown the hi-res scan, the response I got was:

"Well it certainly looks as though the roses are inverted.

I'm really intrigued but I still need convincing, it would certainly be worth getting an RPS certificate.

Fingers crossed it's as it seems."



I think this has caused a lot of head scratching. What bothers me is Stanley Gibbons rather feeble response. Okay, if they consider this to be a "standard SG97", why not volunteer a little explanation, as to how the roses of the watermark vary.

There seems to be an in-bred laziness towards ordinary collectors in SG these days. Had the enquiry come from a prominent dealer or high profile collector, perhaps things may have been different.

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this post
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Charlie2009

06 Sep 2014
12:46:42pm

re: Unknown Watermark ???

How much would one of these certificates be I wonder ??

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www.delcampe.net/en_ ...
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Ningpo

06 Sep 2014
03:55:48pm

re: Unknown Watermark ???

I'd imagine that there are other members here who would be better placed to answer. Much depends on who the expertising body is, whether they charge a percentage of it's catalogue value (bit difficult if it isn't even known). Or will they charge a fixed price. Is the 'body' providing the service acknowledged by the philatelic community? Note there are certain certification bodies/individuals who have a record of issuing bad certs.

Another question needs to be raised: why doesn't the seller get this expertised? Too lazy? Too poor? Not actually convinced himself?

Will he refund your money if a certificate paid for by you, comes back 'negative'?

Finally, are you in a position to have this looked at by a club or preferably a study group? The benefit here is that the strength of other's opinions might guide your decision whether to submit it or not.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Charlie2009

06 Sep 2014
04:44:16pm

re: Unknown Watermark ???

I have only bought this recently with a lot of other stamps and paid € 45.00 for the lot.I have since been advised that a RPS Cert should be about £ 50.00 but if further expertise is required it could cost substantially more, whatever that means.Now if this is indeed an unknown Wmk how can anyone get further expertise ? Anyway I'm going to go onto the RPS site tomorrow and see what's what.Thanks for the response.At least I know I'm not imagining things.I've been looking at stamps since '72 and have never seen one like it.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.delcampe.net/en_ ...
Members Picture
Ningpo

06 Sep 2014
05:57:42pm

re: Unknown Watermark ???

Well you kept that under your hat. So it wasn't a case of risking quite a lot of money on an unknown!

To my eyes you may have an absolute steal. Even if it's not what you hope it is, you won't need to beat yourself up about it.

Like
Login to Like
this post
        

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