Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Here are the first two:
Brossolette did not survive, taking his own life rather than giving away information; Anthonioz did, by virtue of being the niece of Charles de Gaulle, a prominenten prisoner, spared death in the possible event of exchange. (We had one or two prisoners named Churchill, unrelated in fact, who were similarly spared.)
The other two are Germaine Tillion and Jean Zay. I've no doubt their stories are as worthy of remembrance, and I must look them up. Perhaps they'll make it onto stamps in time.
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09:28:06am
To fight from within occupied territory against the ruthless, cruel and compassionless Nazis must have taken unimaginable courage. The vindictiveness of the Nazis knew no limits - the internment and execution of family and friends of known resistance fighters being just one of the tactics employed. Yet these heroic individuals kept coming back, again and again. By whatever name the resistance, or the maquis, paved the way for the ultimate liberation of France. During the course of the war, they rescued and hid numerous allied soldiers who found themselves trapped behind enemy lines.
My hat is doffed in honor of these true heroes.
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The Resistance fighters were true patriots. Facing death every day and not knowing who to trust, including their own countrymen. If they made a mistake, it could lead to reprisal exterminations of entire towns.
Many countries have honored those who sacrificed so much during the war.
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In the UK we can be thankful that we did not have to endure Occupation. Given our early defiance it is quite likely that occupation in Britain would have had even more severe and vindictive measures than in some other countries.
The USA was even more fortunate- not having to endure either occupation or aerial bombardment, but there is no reason to assume that in such event they would have been any less heroic. Even the German civilians showed the same fortitude to bombardment - which I guess shows that in the long term bombing civilians for its own sake rather than in pursuit of military or industrial objectives is futile.
Here in the UK there has been a lot of soul-searching about the ethics of bombing Germany. I don't have an opinion other than to make a comment about morals and history in general."Do not judge the moral choices made in history based on our 21st century notions of marality and ethics, but on those prevalent at the time"
Malcolm
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""Do not judge the moral choices made in history based on our 21st century notions of marality and ethics, but on those prevalent at the time" "
Those are wise words! It applies to many subjects on which some people / groups now insist apologetic statements should be made.
Regarding the original subject of the thread: I am currently reading a book which is a sobering démasqué of Prince Bernhard, the grandfather of the current Dutch king and in the chapters dealing with the second world war and Bernhard's mythical and largely fictional contribution to the liberation of the Netherlands, the writer states that the true number of resistance groups / persons in the Netherlands was very small. Most people were pragmatic and opportunistic, choosing the side from which they expected the most. Only in the last year of the war, different types of fortune seekers joined and even people who used to be NSB members (i.e. collaborators, members of the Dutch fascist movement) claimed to have been in the resistance all the time, under cover of course.
Fact is that for most people, the dangers of joining the resistance were too big and the repercussions if caught too terrifying. Especially in the first years, life wasn't that bad - if you behaved like the Germans wished.
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"Here in the UK there has been a lot of soul-searching about the ethics of bombing Germany.
"
And quite rightly, too. If we do not judge the choices we made in the 1940s, how may we judge those taken or proposed now?
There is still confusion in the UK, where populist opinion rests on the proposition that we were noble, brave and just in our cause, and that therefore we did not, and do not, need to look too closely at the methods we used to defeat the enemy. This conveniently removes from memory the many voices that were raised against carpet bombing of civilians while it was actually happening, and the undoubted rejection of Arthur Harris from the pantheon of British heroes in the immediate aftermath of the war.
The bombing of Dresden and other not-especially-military targets in the final throes of the war (to take the obvious example) has surely demanded our consideration ever since. It does not particularly matter where in the spectrum of approval/disapproval we place ourselves as individual stamp-collectors, but we should realise the importance of the debate. The notable lack of GB stamps commemorating anything other than Dunkirk, the Battle of Britain, D-Day or VE Day says much about what this country - never (the CI apart) occupied - wishes us to remember, and how we are encouraged to remember it. Comparisons with other European countries are highly instructive (hence my own major stamp collection).
So, the question should not be "Were we right to bomb civilians in WW2?" - but "Are we right to bomb the next group of civilians the politicians insist we must, in order to defeat whatever foe, real or imaginary, confronts us?" It will help us if we consider Dresden and Hamburg as we tackle that one.
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Interesting thread
We owe our freedom to our armed forces because of their bravery. Having stated this, we do have to remember freedom fighters within their occupied countries.
I think it is proper that resistance fighters should be portrayed on stamps.
My aunt was Belgian. My uncle and her married very shortly after the war. I want to point out that at the age of 17 in the early years of the war, my aunt was hunted, and shot at, by the Gestapo. Her father died because of ill treatment from them in 1947. I would like to point out that she was given a military funeral at the local legion here in Bracebridge because of her war history and because my uncle was also in the forces.
Sadly, she died from the result of a 'hit and run' driver in Niagara, Ontario only five years ago. The driver was never found. Fate has its' strange quirks too because her mother died from the results of a 'hit and run' the same way, and, on the same date many years before.
Chimo
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Here's a few more of the series from the French Post Office.
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Guthrum
How I love to diagree with you ! My main reservation to carpet bombing is that it was ineffective,counter-productive and a waste of resources.
It is a fact that for much of the war the technology available meant that precicion bombing was not just difficult it was impossible - therefore the only way of hitting a German factory was to get into the general vicinity, press the button and hope that you might get somewhere near the target. If you didn't hit the factory, at least the disruption to transport (and lack of sleep of the workforce) might hinder production somewhat - but my opinion is that in the early days at least it was seen as way of giving Germany back some of what they had given us.
However given the reaction of the British public to bombing it was naiive in the extreme to think that civilian target bombing would destroy morale, and hence it was counter-productive to systematically attack targets of little material value - and that those resources would have been better used elsewhere - however I cannot subscribe to the view that the possibility of any collateral civilian casualties should nullify the choice of a target- the military objective should be the criteria ( even if subsequently it should prove to be transitory or over-optimistic). It was total war after all. The thing I find totally unacceptable is the view that it was the aircrew's fault - Bomber Command had the highest rate of casualties ( and the highest rate of young casualties) if any arm of the air force. The decision as to how to pursue the bombing war was a political one and the politicians should accept any blame that might be going.
To return to the Resistance topic, it is a fact that resistance was most succesful where the natural topography of the country was favourable - rural France, the mountains of Norway,Greece and the Balkans for example, whereas the low countries and Denmark had dense populations,and a high ratio of occupiers to occupied, and very few places to hide! Additionally the SOE were particularly unsuccesful in Netherlands where their networks were quite comprehensively penetrated, and unforgivably they were quite unaware of it for some time. I would concur about the business of collaboration - it takes a very brave man to put his own and his families life at risk. However what is unforgivable are those people who gratuitously informed on their neighbours to gain personal advantage (property etc). It is also I think true that some people who were originally been considered collaborators were actually "collaborating" in order to collect material or information for the resistance. Life for them immediately after liberation could have been "interesting" if not somewhat hazardous !
Of course in addition to moral judgements made in a different era, we must always realise that people making judgements could only do so in the light of what they knew/believed or could be expected to surmise. Things that they couldn't know or had been deliberately hidden or misinformed about are only valid in hindsight. If we had hindsight we would never make mistakes would we ?
Malcolm
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So, I'll jump in here on the subject of civilian targeting. Early air treatises, notably Douhet's, written in the early inter-war 20s, recommended bombardment of civilian targets for multiple reasons. Theory far outstripped capability, so little could be tested in practice, and aerial atrocities like Guernica, showed the immediate, but not the long-term effects, on the populace.
Germany used "terror" bombing, which is different from carpet bombing of cities, although there are common aspects, but its air force was neither configured to nor capable of the kind of bombardment that the British and American air armies delivered.
The debate rages today, both on moral grounds and in strategic equations. German air wars on London probably had litte strategic effect, although tacticly, their combined arms tactics decimated all military foes before it. Now consider the American use of atomic bombing; there is little doubt that it DID have an effect, and an immediate one. Its difference was merely one of magnitude; that coupled with the near invincibility of B29s, Japan understood its coming doom.
It's funny, though, because I'd argue against civilian targeting, and yet it was effective in that one instance.
I could go on and on with the corrolaries, such as draining Iranian marshes, ethnic cleansing in the Balkans and Sudan, or defoliating IndoChina, but modern war now encompasses such atrocities routinely, and that by the mechanized, industrialized forces. Lesser equipped forces are left to devise different devices to deliver terror.
God, how I enjoy discussing war and hate its existence and, worse, its consequences.
David
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This has again gone off-topic. Malcolm, you must PM me for a debate on strategy and tactics of WW2, though I cannot promise to reply. Or try 'Non-Philatelic Discussion'. After my MA in military history I am not especially disposed to get into lengthy debates - I had enough of them then, and resumed my stamp collecting with great relief.
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05:56:12pm
Thanks, Ian. Please, folk, return to a discussion of "Heroes and heroines of the Resistance" or start a new thread.
Bobby
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I respectfully disagree with Ian's mild rebuke of Malcolm. His comment was peripherally Germain to the topic and members shouldn't resort to naming their educational credentials. Just my two cents.
-Ernie
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While the Dutch resistance probably did not travel in armed bands...many of the people did resist Nazi efforts...like the brave railway workers and longshoreman who went on strike even though it meant starvation for their families..and the many who harbored escaped allied P.O.W.s and Jews. Jopie could speak to it a lot better than i..but i have read the books about the hunger winter etc :
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Jean Zay is honored in a stamp issued in 1984: Scott#B560 (Y&T #2329)
rrr
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Thanks for that, Ralph. In my SG catalogue he is down as a 'politician' under the heading 'Red Cross Fund' - which is no doubt why I overlooked the name when I was making up my topical list many years ago.
I am not sure what the connection is with the Red Cross. Wikipedia notes that Zay was assassinated by the Milice in 1944 before a planned trip to Casablanca where he was part of a group dedicated to forming a resistance government in North Africa. He was also (irrelevantly to our purpose, but interestingly) the original proposer of the Cannes film festival, which was eventually inaugurated after the war.
Another for my collection!
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My guess is that a stamp will be issued in the near future for Germaine Tillion. She lived very prominently and actively until 2008, and died at 100, it may have been too early, or was competing with many other honors.
rrr...
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I wasn't wishing to denigrate the efforts of Dutch and others, simply pointing out the additional difficulties which perhaps meant that the results wer not so spectacular,though no doubt no less valuable.
On that note I will disappear back in to my den,and not return again.
Malcolm
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Good to read in the paper that France has elevated to the Pantheon four of its Resistance hero(in)es. Stamps are a great education, and I knew of the two of them who have made it onto French stamps, but not the two who haven't.
Here are the first two:
Brossolette did not survive, taking his own life rather than giving away information; Anthonioz did, by virtue of being the niece of Charles de Gaulle, a prominenten prisoner, spared death in the possible event of exchange. (We had one or two prisoners named Churchill, unrelated in fact, who were similarly spared.)
The other two are Germaine Tillion and Jean Zay. I've no doubt their stories are as worthy of remembrance, and I must look them up. Perhaps they'll make it onto stamps in time.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
29 May 2015
09:28:06am
re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
To fight from within occupied territory against the ruthless, cruel and compassionless Nazis must have taken unimaginable courage. The vindictiveness of the Nazis knew no limits - the internment and execution of family and friends of known resistance fighters being just one of the tactics employed. Yet these heroic individuals kept coming back, again and again. By whatever name the resistance, or the maquis, paved the way for the ultimate liberation of France. During the course of the war, they rescued and hid numerous allied soldiers who found themselves trapped behind enemy lines.
My hat is doffed in honor of these true heroes.
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re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
The Resistance fighters were true patriots. Facing death every day and not knowing who to trust, including their own countrymen. If they made a mistake, it could lead to reprisal exterminations of entire towns.
Many countries have honored those who sacrificed so much during the war.
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06:56:38am
re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
In the UK we can be thankful that we did not have to endure Occupation. Given our early defiance it is quite likely that occupation in Britain would have had even more severe and vindictive measures than in some other countries.
The USA was even more fortunate- not having to endure either occupation or aerial bombardment, but there is no reason to assume that in such event they would have been any less heroic. Even the German civilians showed the same fortitude to bombardment - which I guess shows that in the long term bombing civilians for its own sake rather than in pursuit of military or industrial objectives is futile.
Here in the UK there has been a lot of soul-searching about the ethics of bombing Germany. I don't have an opinion other than to make a comment about morals and history in general."Do not judge the moral choices made in history based on our 21st century notions of marality and ethics, but on those prevalent at the time"
Malcolm
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re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
""Do not judge the moral choices made in history based on our 21st century notions of marality and ethics, but on those prevalent at the time" "
Those are wise words! It applies to many subjects on which some people / groups now insist apologetic statements should be made.
Regarding the original subject of the thread: I am currently reading a book which is a sobering démasqué of Prince Bernhard, the grandfather of the current Dutch king and in the chapters dealing with the second world war and Bernhard's mythical and largely fictional contribution to the liberation of the Netherlands, the writer states that the true number of resistance groups / persons in the Netherlands was very small. Most people were pragmatic and opportunistic, choosing the side from which they expected the most. Only in the last year of the war, different types of fortune seekers joined and even people who used to be NSB members (i.e. collaborators, members of the Dutch fascist movement) claimed to have been in the resistance all the time, under cover of course.
Fact is that for most people, the dangers of joining the resistance were too big and the repercussions if caught too terrifying. Especially in the first years, life wasn't that bad - if you behaved like the Germans wished.
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re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
"Here in the UK there has been a lot of soul-searching about the ethics of bombing Germany.
"
And quite rightly, too. If we do not judge the choices we made in the 1940s, how may we judge those taken or proposed now?
There is still confusion in the UK, where populist opinion rests on the proposition that we were noble, brave and just in our cause, and that therefore we did not, and do not, need to look too closely at the methods we used to defeat the enemy. This conveniently removes from memory the many voices that were raised against carpet bombing of civilians while it was actually happening, and the undoubted rejection of Arthur Harris from the pantheon of British heroes in the immediate aftermath of the war.
The bombing of Dresden and other not-especially-military targets in the final throes of the war (to take the obvious example) has surely demanded our consideration ever since. It does not particularly matter where in the spectrum of approval/disapproval we place ourselves as individual stamp-collectors, but we should realise the importance of the debate. The notable lack of GB stamps commemorating anything other than Dunkirk, the Battle of Britain, D-Day or VE Day says much about what this country - never (the CI apart) occupied - wishes us to remember, and how we are encouraged to remember it. Comparisons with other European countries are highly instructive (hence my own major stamp collection).
So, the question should not be "Were we right to bomb civilians in WW2?" - but "Are we right to bomb the next group of civilians the politicians insist we must, in order to defeat whatever foe, real or imaginary, confronts us?" It will help us if we consider Dresden and Hamburg as we tackle that one.
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re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
Interesting thread
We owe our freedom to our armed forces because of their bravery. Having stated this, we do have to remember freedom fighters within their occupied countries.
I think it is proper that resistance fighters should be portrayed on stamps.
My aunt was Belgian. My uncle and her married very shortly after the war. I want to point out that at the age of 17 in the early years of the war, my aunt was hunted, and shot at, by the Gestapo. Her father died because of ill treatment from them in 1947. I would like to point out that she was given a military funeral at the local legion here in Bracebridge because of her war history and because my uncle was also in the forces.
Sadly, she died from the result of a 'hit and run' driver in Niagara, Ontario only five years ago. The driver was never found. Fate has its' strange quirks too because her mother died from the results of a 'hit and run' the same way, and, on the same date many years before.
Chimo
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08:25:16am
re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
Here's a few more of the series from the French Post Office.
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01:46:12pm
re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
Guthrum
How I love to diagree with you ! My main reservation to carpet bombing is that it was ineffective,counter-productive and a waste of resources.
It is a fact that for much of the war the technology available meant that precicion bombing was not just difficult it was impossible - therefore the only way of hitting a German factory was to get into the general vicinity, press the button and hope that you might get somewhere near the target. If you didn't hit the factory, at least the disruption to transport (and lack of sleep of the workforce) might hinder production somewhat - but my opinion is that in the early days at least it was seen as way of giving Germany back some of what they had given us.
However given the reaction of the British public to bombing it was naiive in the extreme to think that civilian target bombing would destroy morale, and hence it was counter-productive to systematically attack targets of little material value - and that those resources would have been better used elsewhere - however I cannot subscribe to the view that the possibility of any collateral civilian casualties should nullify the choice of a target- the military objective should be the criteria ( even if subsequently it should prove to be transitory or over-optimistic). It was total war after all. The thing I find totally unacceptable is the view that it was the aircrew's fault - Bomber Command had the highest rate of casualties ( and the highest rate of young casualties) if any arm of the air force. The decision as to how to pursue the bombing war was a political one and the politicians should accept any blame that might be going.
To return to the Resistance topic, it is a fact that resistance was most succesful where the natural topography of the country was favourable - rural France, the mountains of Norway,Greece and the Balkans for example, whereas the low countries and Denmark had dense populations,and a high ratio of occupiers to occupied, and very few places to hide! Additionally the SOE were particularly unsuccesful in Netherlands where their networks were quite comprehensively penetrated, and unforgivably they were quite unaware of it for some time. I would concur about the business of collaboration - it takes a very brave man to put his own and his families life at risk. However what is unforgivable are those people who gratuitously informed on their neighbours to gain personal advantage (property etc). It is also I think true that some people who were originally been considered collaborators were actually "collaborating" in order to collect material or information for the resistance. Life for them immediately after liberation could have been "interesting" if not somewhat hazardous !
Of course in addition to moral judgements made in a different era, we must always realise that people making judgements could only do so in the light of what they knew/believed or could be expected to surmise. Things that they couldn't know or had been deliberately hidden or misinformed about are only valid in hindsight. If we had hindsight we would never make mistakes would we ?
Malcolm
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re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
So, I'll jump in here on the subject of civilian targeting. Early air treatises, notably Douhet's, written in the early inter-war 20s, recommended bombardment of civilian targets for multiple reasons. Theory far outstripped capability, so little could be tested in practice, and aerial atrocities like Guernica, showed the immediate, but not the long-term effects, on the populace.
Germany used "terror" bombing, which is different from carpet bombing of cities, although there are common aspects, but its air force was neither configured to nor capable of the kind of bombardment that the British and American air armies delivered.
The debate rages today, both on moral grounds and in strategic equations. German air wars on London probably had litte strategic effect, although tacticly, their combined arms tactics decimated all military foes before it. Now consider the American use of atomic bombing; there is little doubt that it DID have an effect, and an immediate one. Its difference was merely one of magnitude; that coupled with the near invincibility of B29s, Japan understood its coming doom.
It's funny, though, because I'd argue against civilian targeting, and yet it was effective in that one instance.
I could go on and on with the corrolaries, such as draining Iranian marshes, ethnic cleansing in the Balkans and Sudan, or defoliating IndoChina, but modern war now encompasses such atrocities routinely, and that by the mechanized, industrialized forces. Lesser equipped forces are left to devise different devices to deliver terror.
God, how I enjoy discussing war and hate its existence and, worse, its consequences.
David
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re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
This has again gone off-topic. Malcolm, you must PM me for a debate on strategy and tactics of WW2, though I cannot promise to reply. Or try 'Non-Philatelic Discussion'. After my MA in military history I am not especially disposed to get into lengthy debates - I had enough of them then, and resumed my stamp collecting with great relief.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
12 Jun 2015
05:56:12pm
re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
Thanks, Ian. Please, folk, return to a discussion of "Heroes and heroines of the Resistance" or start a new thread.
Bobby
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re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
I respectfully disagree with Ian's mild rebuke of Malcolm. His comment was peripherally Germain to the topic and members shouldn't resort to naming their educational credentials. Just my two cents.
-Ernie
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re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
While the Dutch resistance probably did not travel in armed bands...many of the people did resist Nazi efforts...like the brave railway workers and longshoreman who went on strike even though it meant starvation for their families..and the many who harbored escaped allied P.O.W.s and Jews. Jopie could speak to it a lot better than i..but i have read the books about the hunger winter etc :
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
13 Jun 2015
04:31:51pm
re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
Jean Zay is honored in a stamp issued in 1984: Scott#B560 (Y&T #2329)
rrr
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re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
Thanks for that, Ralph. In my SG catalogue he is down as a 'politician' under the heading 'Red Cross Fund' - which is no doubt why I overlooked the name when I was making up my topical list many years ago.
I am not sure what the connection is with the Red Cross. Wikipedia notes that Zay was assassinated by the Milice in 1944 before a planned trip to Casablanca where he was part of a group dedicated to forming a resistance government in North Africa. He was also (irrelevantly to our purpose, but interestingly) the original proposer of the Cannes film festival, which was eventually inaugurated after the war.
Another for my collection!
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
13 Jun 2015
10:49:19pm
re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
My guess is that a stamp will be issued in the near future for Germaine Tillion. She lived very prominently and actively until 2008, and died at 100, it may have been too early, or was competing with many other honors.
rrr...
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11:33:59am
re: Heroes and heroines of the Resistance
I wasn't wishing to denigrate the efforts of Dutch and others, simply pointing out the additional difficulties which perhaps meant that the results wer not so spectacular,though no doubt no less valuable.
On that note I will disappear back in to my den,and not return again.
Malcolm
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