Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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I just finished a couple books on the Boer War (recently inherited from my wife's late-Uncle, a serious historian who specialized in the American Civil War) and I am currently re-reading Churchill's opus series on WWII.
Apart from the horrors of those concentration camps, I am amazed with the dual stories of Jan Smuts. Perhaps the Boer's most brilliant commander to fight against the British. And who, in defeat, dropped his views of racial segregation and later joined the British War Cabinets in both WWI and WWII as one of their most reliable strategists and statesmen.
It brought to mind the other books I inherited and read (on the Civil War) and the history of Robert E. Lee - who unlike Smuts, seems to be (unfairly?) vilified as a traitor and race-hater whose statues need to be torn down and his memory erased.
I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm just saying (as an objective reader of history) that I find it interesting.
Dave.
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Phil: my reading is quite eclectic - I usually have at least 6 books on my bedside table at any time. Right now I have a history of the periodic table, my old University calculus textbook, The Hinge of Fate (Churchill), an autobiography of a concentration camp survivor (written by a recent donor to the Holocaust Stamps Project), the history of Israel, and some others I can't recall.
More and more, though, I'm tying my historical reading into my stamp collecting interests. I just finished about 4 books (also recently inherited) on WWI generally and the Versaille Treaty specifically, and the shenanigans at the end of WWII. Paris 1919 by Margaret MacMillan is highly recommended, as is The Last 100 Days by John Toland. Lee and Grant by Gene Smith was my recent introduction to the Civil War.
I've just started customizing my Steiner Pages accordingly, and adding little vignettes to put all the political/territorial changes in perspective. I just started Belgium this weekend and will post some scans if I remember when I get home tonight.
Dave.
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You've got to be a little bit careful with Smuts. Certainly a great general, politician and statesman, along with Louis Botha. Smuts was an advocate of justice for the black African within South Africa, and he certainly dropped the concept of segregation late in life (supporting the Fagan Commission's findings), but there's some ambivalence as to whether he ever really considered that blacks should truly have political equality with white South Africans. Ironically, much of the fundamental architecture of what would become apartheid was actually installed by Smuts - a gifted lawyer and legislator.
Darryl (history buff, historian, history teacher and at one point in his much earlier undergraduate life, quite conversant on the Boer War and Canadian/imperial policy surrounding it)
P.S. One could argue that some of the real winners of the Boer War were Mohandas Gandhi and the Indian independence movement, since Gandhi began developing the tactics of non-violent protest as a result of treatment of Indians in South Africa in the wake of the war.
P.P.S. Dave - give MacMillan's "The War that Ended Peace" a read if you get a chance - not quite as compelling as 'Paris 1919', but really covers how the whole mess (WWI) unfolded. Modris Eksteins' 'The Rites of Spring' is a fascinating take on the cultural changes wrought by WWI, and Eric Hobsbawm's 'The Age of Extremes' is a very long, involved, and superb look at how WWI is the forge that created the the modern age. As I tell my students, you can pretty much blame everything after 1919 on WWI and Versailles in some way.
P.P.P.S Pakenham's 'The Boer War' is probably the definitive history on the war. Haven't read it in a few years, but'll probably be up in the library tomorrow signing it out for the summer. Thanks, Phil!
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I am fond of The Proud Tower, Ms Tuchman's 1890-1914 prequel to The Guns of August.
How amazing that they all saw it coming, and for so long, and still it came.
Makes me wonder about the books they might write some day about anthropomorphic climate change.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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I think I have Tuchman's 'A Distant Mirror' on the shelf, in the category "I will need to find the time to read all these books I have bought over the years"...
Books about history are my favorites. Middle Ages come first, but also about the Romans, about the history of science and technology as well as local history.
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absolutely fabulous reading this, and knowing so little about the Boer War.
I adore Tuchman's work. Guns of August is utterly compelling, and I've read it maybe 4 times.
the sole book I read on the Boer War probably left me in weeds a tad too high, coming at it with no knowledge at all
As to predicting wars, most of them are easily foreseeable. The problem isn't prescience, it's the willingness to remove the things that are leading countries to conflict. A few, like the Korean War, seem to come out of nowhere.
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Like other members in this forum, I have books that I bought over the years that I have not had the time to read. One such book is titled "The Story of South Africa" by John Clark Ridpath, LL. D, Edward S. Ellis, A.M., John A. Cooper and J.H. Aiken. The book was copyrighted in 1899 and in 1902 by Jones Brothers Publishing Company and actually published by "World Publishing Company of Guelph, Ontario. So, it was in the process of being published during and just after the Boer War ended.
This book is a history of the build up to the war and other issues, political and military as well.
However, what made up my mind to buy this book was that it lists all of the Canadian military personnel who was in the war. This book fit in quite well to my Canadian military library so to speak. The book is in rough shape, and for the most part is still intact.
Whenever I come across a Boer War cover, I refer to this book in my efforts to identify the sender or the name of the address. I was able to find this book in a second hand book store. My only problem is that I only have a few covers from the Boer War. Nonetheless, it was a good find.
Chimo
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There are a number of free books on the Boer war and South Africa for download on project Gutenberg.
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/search/?query=story+of+South+Africa
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On a philatelic note, the Republic of South Africa 1982 definitive series featured Melrose House on the 25c stamp
Notable for being requisitioned as the British Headquarters after Pretoria was invaded in 1900. And later the location for the signing of the "Treaty of Vereeniging" which ended the Second Boer War in 1902.
It is also notable for being on my route home from junior School, and which I walked past on a daily basis without giving it a second thought.
Regrettably most of my South African history was learnt at school under a government dictated syllabus where facts were secondary to promoting the government agenda. I really should pick up a good (and hopefully objective) book on the Boer War to fill the gaps. The consensus here seems to be Thomas Pakenham's "The Boer War", any other suggestions?
Clive
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"There are a number of free books on the Boer war and South Africa for download on project Gutenberg"
Thanks for the reminder Vic. I used to access this site years ago but had totally forgotten it. A great site for many post-copyright books that perhaps did not have great sales, but are still fantastic resources.
Phil/Darryl: I checked my home library, and the book I recently read about the Boer War was Packenham's. Very well written IMO.
Looks like a common feature of stamp collectors here is that they also have a love for history. I think combining the two (reading-collecting ... collecting-reading) makes for a very interesting and enjoyable use of time!
Dave.
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Dave, like yourself i have a stack of books to read...lately i am really into the history of our Hudson Valley and John Burroughs a local naturlist and poet from the post civil war era. Like Walt Whitman and other poets he was anti Industry and Technology.
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"It brought to mind the other books I inherited and read (on the Civil War) and the history of Robert E. Lee - who unlike Smuts, seems to be (unfairly?) vilified as a traitor and race-hater whose statues need to be torn down and his memory erased.
I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm just saying (as an objective reader of history) that I find it interesting."
But you did go there.
Lee was a traitor--that is simple. He fought a war against his own country.
"Or, as Civil War historian Eric Foner described Lee’s mixed viewpoint on slavery more succinctly in the New York Times:
“He was not a pro-slavery ideologue,” Eric Foner, a Civil War historian, author and professor of history at Columbia University, said of Lee. “But I think equally important is that, unlike some white southerners, he never spoke out against slavery.”
“What interests people who debate Lee today is his connection with slavery and his views about race. During his lifetime, Lee owned a small number of slaves. He considered himself a paternalistic master but could also impose severe punishments, especially on those who attempted to run away. Lee said almost nothing in public about the institution.”
“Lee’s code of gentlemanly conduct did not seem to apply to blacks. During the Gettysburg campaign, he did nothing to stop soldiers in his army from kidnapping free black farmers for sale into slavery. In Reconstruction, Lee made it clear that he opposed political rights for the former slaves. Referring to blacks (30 percent of Virginia’s population), he told a Congressional committee that he hoped the state could be “rid of them.” Urged to condemn the Ku Klux Klan’s terrorist violence, Lee remained silent.”"
I don't think his memory should be as you say erased but rather the statues to traitors should come down and removed to a museum that explains why the statues were put in place and by whom, why these people were traitors to the United States using their words and deeds.
Bruce
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POW Cover from the Boer War...
Found out this information on Jan Jacobus Chrisoffel Geyer on
Anglo-Boer War Museum Website.
Surname GEYER
Name JAN JACOBUS CHRISTOFFEL
Age 31
Address VENTERS KROON
District POTCHEFSTROOM
Where Captured PAARDEBERG
When Captured 1900/02/27
Camp Onbekend
Country St. Helena
Ship (To) Onbekend
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Consistently,there are two very interesting articles regarding Boer War POW mails to and from Boer prisoners held in Bermuda during that conflict in the current (July - September 2018) issue of The Bermuda Post. The Bermuda Post is the house organ of the Bermuda Collectors Society.
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Stampme: I'm happy to leave American political opinions and debates to Americans. My knowledge is limited, my passions are un-inflamed, my biases are nebulous, and my rhetoric is weak. Also, I don't really care, so I'll let others weigh-in.
On the other hand, I would be interested if anyone has recommendations about books on FDR, especially in the WWII era. My opinions are largely formed from my reading of Churchill (who was obviously biased, although mostly positive). But on my soccer trip last weekend, my friend Mike said he read some books years ago that painted Roosevelt in a different light from my impressions.
Thanks, Dave.
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parkinlot: Do you actually own that cover? It is a fantastic piece of history. Perhaps (yet another...) collecting area to consider.
Thanks for posting.
Dave.
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Yes, I do own it. If it had a St. Helena receiving mark it would be worth a lot more.
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Was St. Helena the holding spot for POWs at the time (the Guantanamo Bay of the day)?
Is that the island in (I think) the Caribbean or was it some other place?
Very interesting...
Dave.
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It's in the South Atlantic. Napoleon was also exiled there.
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lemaven: "I don't really care."
Sorry to hear that.
Bruce
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Clive:
One of the problems with the Boer War is that it seemed to drop off historian's collective radar for 70 years. When I was doing my undergrad, there was almost nothing between the creation of the Union till Pakenham wrote his history (and I will reiterate that this is the definitive account). However, Conan Doyle's history is quite good. Churchill's writings were collected into a single volume - well written, but Churchillian in every way. He wasn't one to let facts get in the way of a good story. A worthy read, however. Deneys Reitz's 'Commando' is an interesting memoir- Reitz's father was a Boer general, and the younger one fought against the British. Of the post-Packenham histories, my favourite is by Byron Farwell ('The Great Boer War'). I've heard good things about Martin Bossenbroek's history. I think it looks at the progress of the war through multiple lenses, Churchill and Reitz's being two of them.
And if you can find a biography of Emily Hobhouse, I don't think you could possibly ruin her story. I'd recommend J.A. Hobson's critique of British imperialism from 1900 or A.P. Thorton's look at the view of Empire and the place the Boer War took, but that's just nostalgia on my part...
-Darryl
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Dave:
Like all humans, FDR was a complex political animal. Can't recommend any bios since its outside my realm of knowledge. I know that Conrad Black wrote a well received bio on him a few years, but I refuse to read it as I will not support that hypocritical, vainglorious, pseudo-treasonous whining windbag in any way if I can help it.
(I don't like Lord Crossharbour very much, in case you haven't guessed...)
-Darryl
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Dave,
One of my interests is reading biographies of U.S. presidents. Over the past couple of years I have read two biographies of FDR, both of which I can recommend to you. The first is “Traitor to His Class...” by HW Brands. The second is “FDR” by Jean Edwards Smith. I enjoyed the Smith book somewhat more than the Brand.
David
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Franklin and Elanor are buried 15 miles down the road(together at last) so we pretty much know the skinny on him. I read an amazing book about Teddy Roosevelt "The River of Doubt" by Candice Millard about a crazy expedition Teddy and his son Kermit went on the Amazon. He came very close to dying of some illness.
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Ok..so with U.S. history I can hang with the best of them..but my knowledge of this episode in human history is woefully lacking... Somebody chime in and let me know if my Reader's Digest hits the mark:
1. Dutch speaking farmers, Boers, settle southern Africa in the middle of the 19th century in a climate of increasing global competition for African colonial presence.
2. The British originally recognize two free independent Boer states but...
3. Diamonds are discovered and the Brits reneg. Jerks.
4. Brave Boers, against all odds, battle the British empire while also fighting indigenous peoples.
5. Boers perform well but are eventually overrun.
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"fighting indigenous peoples" The forgotten ones. They lost too.
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""fighting indigenous peoples" The forgotten ones. They lost too."
Ain't that the truth.
Bruce
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In financial terms the British lost..everything had to be shipped to South Africa 10s of thousands of horses,mules whatever an army needed to function. It broke the bank.
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Coincidence? When the Brits were advising the then-current Greek Government on how to resist an insurgency, one of their strategies included removing children from rebel villages.
For their protection, of course.
Here are some notes I wrote-up about the Missing Greek Children a few years ago:
"Thoughts on the Abduction of the Greek Children
First, let me extend my apologies to anyone who knows of these events thru their grandparents, their parents, or their own recollection.
I am going to engage in some 'fair-minded' speculation, and you might want to take a pass.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War#paidomazoma ... the Wikipedia entry
Let's all agree that the Greek Communists (hereinafter "GrecoCommies", or "GCs") moved children, out of the land of their habitual residence, to camps in a variety of East European countries.
Let's all agree that the Greek Provisional Government (hereinafter "PG") moved children, out of the towns of their habitual residence, to camps in other parts of Greece.
Let's all agree that, given the chance, each party would say it was acting to protect the children from the other party, or from the hazards of living in a war zone.
He said, she said, as we say.
Let's all agree that, even if we had the patience & resources, a laborius search of local newspapers, family diaries, etc, would be unlikely to get us back to a completely convincing prime cause.
(This last might not be true, as every surviving primary document *might* tell the same story. Cut me some slack.)
Let's all agree that the GrecoCommies were assisted by the Yugoslavs et al, and that the Provisional Government was assisted by the British. Ah, the British.
The British had, only a few years earlier, benignly evacuated *their* children from (many of) their cities, to the countryside, to get them out from under Luftwaffe bombardment.
Moreover, British troops, less than fifty years earlier, had roamed the countryside of southern Africa and, when a Boer farmer was not at home, forcibly removed his wife & children & whomever else to a concentration camp.
(If 'fifty years' sounds like too long a time to be relevant, you are not yet, say, fifty-five years old. Once you can remember things that happened fifty years ago, they are not 'history' ... they are 'yesterday'.)
I am not familiar with all of the details, but I'm willing to *guess* that the Brits publicly argued that those otherwise-unprotected Boer women & children would be safer if they were not all alone on those widely-scattered farms, and would quietly argue - to anyone who would listen - that the farmer's very absence proved that he had joined the rebels.
And, perhaps, not so quietly.
The idea of suppressing an insurrection by going after the rebels' children was not, at the time of the Greek Civil War, new.
The idea that some children should be taken away from their parents, in peacetime, for their own good, was centuries-old.
The idea that children should be enrolled in ideologically-correct(ing) Youth Movements to mould their character was not only old, but continues to this day, particularly in religious communities & secular totalitarian countries.
What happened to the Green children was appalling, but it was hardly one-sided.
I do not think we need to sort-out the 'he said, she said' as, in all likelihood, had either side not started evacuating children, the other would have done so on their own.
But, as seen by the Greek stamps of 1949, history is written by the victors."
Seems like the Greeks lost the Boer War, too.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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OK, Ernie. Here goes. Deep breath ... and GO!
"Ok..so with U.S. history I can hang with the best of them..but my knowledge of this episode in human history is woefully lacking... Somebody chime in and let me know if my Reader's Digest hits the mark:
1. Dutch speaking farmers, Boers, settle southern Africa in the middle of the 19th century in a climate of increasing global competition for African colonial presence."
Settlement of the Cape goes back to the mid 1600s as a secure base for the Dutch East India Company. Early settlement was largely indentured servants and French Huguenots. The Company was not the most enlightened, and periodically groups of Dutch settlers would push inland to get away from the worst of it (the early 'treks'). Britain takes control of the Cape in 1806, since what was once Holland sided with Napoleon. They keep it to help secure the India route.
"2. The British originally recognize two free independent Boer states but..."
The Boer states aren't formed until after the 'Voortrek' ('Great Trek')in the 1830s, leading to a series of violent confrontations with the Xhosa and the Zulu, who weren't taking too kindly to European incursions into their lands. The Boer states were recognized as self-governing but under a British protectorate in 1854. This state of affairs continues until 1881 (First Anglo-Boer War) when Britain recognizes full independence of the two states. (combination of military incompetence and changes in political situation in Great Britain)
"3. Diamonds are discovered and the Brits reneg. Jerks."
Not diamonds, but gold. (The diamonds were old news). Transvaal is flooded with 'Uitlanders' (foreigners) in for the money. Boers were worried about losing control of control of their own nation and limit political rights of the Uitlanders, as well as boosting taxes. A number are discontented and grumble about rebelling. Enter Cecil Rhodes and Alfred Beit, who payroll a raid by 600 men into the Transvaal. The raid goes badly. The Colonial Secretary, Joseph Chamberlain knows about it, but it seems that no one else in the government does. Attempts to negotiate fail, then the Boers attack the British (yes, you read that right). However, the Brits were jerks.
"4. Brave Boers, against all odds, battle the British empire while also fighting indigenous peoples."
More or less true. Interestingly, the British government did not follow its military's advice to build up a large force in South Africa so as not to antagonize the Boers (the Prime Minister was not anxious for war, but the Colonial Office was working quitely to undermine the situation). The Boer treatment of the indigenous people is not a glowing moment in South African history.
"5. Boers perform well but are eventually overrun."
Not as well as the early histories would have you think. The Boers made serious errors as well, but were able to take advantage of British errors, incompetence and logistical problems. The actual 'war' was over in just over a year, but the Boers went on 'commando' and prolonged the fighting for another two, until Kitchener and Roberts embarked on cutting the countryside into boxes and strangling resistance through starvation and the concentration camps.
This is the slightly less abridged Reader's Digest version, Ernie. Still a number of gross generalizations. I'd suggest Pakenham if you've got a few weeks
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Phil:
Couldn't resist. Got Pakenham from the school library. My summer read ... Along with finishing off "A Soldier of the Great War."
-Darryl
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According to the index in Thomas Parkenhams The Boer War there were 22,000 deaths among the 448,000 Imperial and colonial troops due to combat,unattended wounds or disease. Among the Boers percentage wise the deaths 7,000 out of a total of 87,365 was much higher. No one knows how many boer women and children died in the concentration camps. Official estimates vary between 18,000 and 28,000.
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
I just finished a couple books on the Boer War (recently inherited from my wife's late-Uncle, a serious historian who specialized in the American Civil War) and I am currently re-reading Churchill's opus series on WWII.
Apart from the horrors of those concentration camps, I am amazed with the dual stories of Jan Smuts. Perhaps the Boer's most brilliant commander to fight against the British. And who, in defeat, dropped his views of racial segregation and later joined the British War Cabinets in both WWI and WWII as one of their most reliable strategists and statesmen.
It brought to mind the other books I inherited and read (on the Civil War) and the history of Robert E. Lee - who unlike Smuts, seems to be (unfairly?) vilified as a traitor and race-hater whose statues need to be torn down and his memory erased.
I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm just saying (as an objective reader of history) that I find it interesting.
Dave.
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
Phil: my reading is quite eclectic - I usually have at least 6 books on my bedside table at any time. Right now I have a history of the periodic table, my old University calculus textbook, The Hinge of Fate (Churchill), an autobiography of a concentration camp survivor (written by a recent donor to the Holocaust Stamps Project), the history of Israel, and some others I can't recall.
More and more, though, I'm tying my historical reading into my stamp collecting interests. I just finished about 4 books (also recently inherited) on WWI generally and the Versaille Treaty specifically, and the shenanigans at the end of WWII. Paris 1919 by Margaret MacMillan is highly recommended, as is The Last 100 Days by John Toland. Lee and Grant by Gene Smith was my recent introduction to the Civil War.
I've just started customizing my Steiner Pages accordingly, and adding little vignettes to put all the political/territorial changes in perspective. I just started Belgium this weekend and will post some scans if I remember when I get home tonight.
Dave.
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
You've got to be a little bit careful with Smuts. Certainly a great general, politician and statesman, along with Louis Botha. Smuts was an advocate of justice for the black African within South Africa, and he certainly dropped the concept of segregation late in life (supporting the Fagan Commission's findings), but there's some ambivalence as to whether he ever really considered that blacks should truly have political equality with white South Africans. Ironically, much of the fundamental architecture of what would become apartheid was actually installed by Smuts - a gifted lawyer and legislator.
Darryl (history buff, historian, history teacher and at one point in his much earlier undergraduate life, quite conversant on the Boer War and Canadian/imperial policy surrounding it)
P.S. One could argue that some of the real winners of the Boer War were Mohandas Gandhi and the Indian independence movement, since Gandhi began developing the tactics of non-violent protest as a result of treatment of Indians in South Africa in the wake of the war.
P.P.S. Dave - give MacMillan's "The War that Ended Peace" a read if you get a chance - not quite as compelling as 'Paris 1919', but really covers how the whole mess (WWI) unfolded. Modris Eksteins' 'The Rites of Spring' is a fascinating take on the cultural changes wrought by WWI, and Eric Hobsbawm's 'The Age of Extremes' is a very long, involved, and superb look at how WWI is the forge that created the the modern age. As I tell my students, you can pretty much blame everything after 1919 on WWI and Versailles in some way.
P.P.P.S Pakenham's 'The Boer War' is probably the definitive history on the war. Haven't read it in a few years, but'll probably be up in the library tomorrow signing it out for the summer. Thanks, Phil!
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
I am fond of The Proud Tower, Ms Tuchman's 1890-1914 prequel to The Guns of August.
How amazing that they all saw it coming, and for so long, and still it came.
Makes me wonder about the books they might write some day about anthropomorphic climate change.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
I think I have Tuchman's 'A Distant Mirror' on the shelf, in the category "I will need to find the time to read all these books I have bought over the years"...
Books about history are my favorites. Middle Ages come first, but also about the Romans, about the history of science and technology as well as local history.
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
absolutely fabulous reading this, and knowing so little about the Boer War.
I adore Tuchman's work. Guns of August is utterly compelling, and I've read it maybe 4 times.
the sole book I read on the Boer War probably left me in weeds a tad too high, coming at it with no knowledge at all
As to predicting wars, most of them are easily foreseeable. The problem isn't prescience, it's the willingness to remove the things that are leading countries to conflict. A few, like the Korean War, seem to come out of nowhere.
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
Like other members in this forum, I have books that I bought over the years that I have not had the time to read. One such book is titled "The Story of South Africa" by John Clark Ridpath, LL. D, Edward S. Ellis, A.M., John A. Cooper and J.H. Aiken. The book was copyrighted in 1899 and in 1902 by Jones Brothers Publishing Company and actually published by "World Publishing Company of Guelph, Ontario. So, it was in the process of being published during and just after the Boer War ended.
This book is a history of the build up to the war and other issues, political and military as well.
However, what made up my mind to buy this book was that it lists all of the Canadian military personnel who was in the war. This book fit in quite well to my Canadian military library so to speak. The book is in rough shape, and for the most part is still intact.
Whenever I come across a Boer War cover, I refer to this book in my efforts to identify the sender or the name of the address. I was able to find this book in a second hand book store. My only problem is that I only have a few covers from the Boer War. Nonetheless, it was a good find.
Chimo
Bujutsu
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
There are a number of free books on the Boer war and South Africa for download on project Gutenberg.
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/search/?query=story+of+South+Africa
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
On a philatelic note, the Republic of South Africa 1982 definitive series featured Melrose House on the 25c stamp
Notable for being requisitioned as the British Headquarters after Pretoria was invaded in 1900. And later the location for the signing of the "Treaty of Vereeniging" which ended the Second Boer War in 1902.
It is also notable for being on my route home from junior School, and which I walked past on a daily basis without giving it a second thought.
Regrettably most of my South African history was learnt at school under a government dictated syllabus where facts were secondary to promoting the government agenda. I really should pick up a good (and hopefully objective) book on the Boer War to fill the gaps. The consensus here seems to be Thomas Pakenham's "The Boer War", any other suggestions?
Clive
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
"There are a number of free books on the Boer war and South Africa for download on project Gutenberg"
Thanks for the reminder Vic. I used to access this site years ago but had totally forgotten it. A great site for many post-copyright books that perhaps did not have great sales, but are still fantastic resources.
Phil/Darryl: I checked my home library, and the book I recently read about the Boer War was Packenham's. Very well written IMO.
Looks like a common feature of stamp collectors here is that they also have a love for history. I think combining the two (reading-collecting ... collecting-reading) makes for a very interesting and enjoyable use of time!
Dave.
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
Dave, like yourself i have a stack of books to read...lately i am really into the history of our Hudson Valley and John Burroughs a local naturlist and poet from the post civil war era. Like Walt Whitman and other poets he was anti Industry and Technology.
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09:11:39am
re: The Boer War the real losers !
"It brought to mind the other books I inherited and read (on the Civil War) and the history of Robert E. Lee - who unlike Smuts, seems to be (unfairly?) vilified as a traitor and race-hater whose statues need to be torn down and his memory erased.
I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm just saying (as an objective reader of history) that I find it interesting."
But you did go there.
Lee was a traitor--that is simple. He fought a war against his own country.
"Or, as Civil War historian Eric Foner described Lee’s mixed viewpoint on slavery more succinctly in the New York Times:
“He was not a pro-slavery ideologue,” Eric Foner, a Civil War historian, author and professor of history at Columbia University, said of Lee. “But I think equally important is that, unlike some white southerners, he never spoke out against slavery.”
“What interests people who debate Lee today is his connection with slavery and his views about race. During his lifetime, Lee owned a small number of slaves. He considered himself a paternalistic master but could also impose severe punishments, especially on those who attempted to run away. Lee said almost nothing in public about the institution.”
“Lee’s code of gentlemanly conduct did not seem to apply to blacks. During the Gettysburg campaign, he did nothing to stop soldiers in his army from kidnapping free black farmers for sale into slavery. In Reconstruction, Lee made it clear that he opposed political rights for the former slaves. Referring to blacks (30 percent of Virginia’s population), he told a Congressional committee that he hoped the state could be “rid of them.” Urged to condemn the Ku Klux Klan’s terrorist violence, Lee remained silent.”"
I don't think his memory should be as you say erased but rather the statues to traitors should come down and removed to a museum that explains why the statues were put in place and by whom, why these people were traitors to the United States using their words and deeds.
Bruce
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President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
21 Jun 2018
10:09:55am
re: The Boer War the real losers !
POW Cover from the Boer War...
Found out this information on Jan Jacobus Chrisoffel Geyer on
Anglo-Boer War Museum Website.
Surname GEYER
Name JAN JACOBUS CHRISTOFFEL
Age 31
Address VENTERS KROON
District POTCHEFSTROOM
Where Captured PAARDEBERG
When Captured 1900/02/27
Camp Onbekend
Country St. Helena
Ship (To) Onbekend
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
Consistently,there are two very interesting articles regarding Boer War POW mails to and from Boer prisoners held in Bermuda during that conflict in the current (July - September 2018) issue of The Bermuda Post. The Bermuda Post is the house organ of the Bermuda Collectors Society.
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
Stampme: I'm happy to leave American political opinions and debates to Americans. My knowledge is limited, my passions are un-inflamed, my biases are nebulous, and my rhetoric is weak. Also, I don't really care, so I'll let others weigh-in.
On the other hand, I would be interested if anyone has recommendations about books on FDR, especially in the WWII era. My opinions are largely formed from my reading of Churchill (who was obviously biased, although mostly positive). But on my soccer trip last weekend, my friend Mike said he read some books years ago that painted Roosevelt in a different light from my impressions.
Thanks, Dave.
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
parkinlot: Do you actually own that cover? It is a fantastic piece of history. Perhaps (yet another...) collecting area to consider.
Thanks for posting.
Dave.
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President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
21 Jun 2018
11:05:45am
re: The Boer War the real losers !
Yes, I do own it. If it had a St. Helena receiving mark it would be worth a lot more.
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
Was St. Helena the holding spot for POWs at the time (the Guantanamo Bay of the day)?
Is that the island in (I think) the Caribbean or was it some other place?
Very interesting...
Dave.
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President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
21 Jun 2018
03:52:45pm
re: The Boer War the real losers !
It's in the South Atlantic. Napoleon was also exiled there.
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04:12:18pm
re: The Boer War the real losers !
lemaven: "I don't really care."
Sorry to hear that.
Bruce
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
Clive:
One of the problems with the Boer War is that it seemed to drop off historian's collective radar for 70 years. When I was doing my undergrad, there was almost nothing between the creation of the Union till Pakenham wrote his history (and I will reiterate that this is the definitive account). However, Conan Doyle's history is quite good. Churchill's writings were collected into a single volume - well written, but Churchillian in every way. He wasn't one to let facts get in the way of a good story. A worthy read, however. Deneys Reitz's 'Commando' is an interesting memoir- Reitz's father was a Boer general, and the younger one fought against the British. Of the post-Packenham histories, my favourite is by Byron Farwell ('The Great Boer War'). I've heard good things about Martin Bossenbroek's history. I think it looks at the progress of the war through multiple lenses, Churchill and Reitz's being two of them.
And if you can find a biography of Emily Hobhouse, I don't think you could possibly ruin her story. I'd recommend J.A. Hobson's critique of British imperialism from 1900 or A.P. Thorton's look at the view of Empire and the place the Boer War took, but that's just nostalgia on my part...
-Darryl
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
Dave:
Like all humans, FDR was a complex political animal. Can't recommend any bios since its outside my realm of knowledge. I know that Conrad Black wrote a well received bio on him a few years, but I refuse to read it as I will not support that hypocritical, vainglorious, pseudo-treasonous whining windbag in any way if I can help it.
(I don't like Lord Crossharbour very much, in case you haven't guessed...)
-Darryl
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Dave,
One of my interests is reading biographies of U.S. presidents. Over the past couple of years I have read two biographies of FDR, both of which I can recommend to you. The first is “Traitor to His Class...” by HW Brands. The second is “FDR” by Jean Edwards Smith. I enjoyed the Smith book somewhat more than the Brand.
David
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
Franklin and Elanor are buried 15 miles down the road(together at last) so we pretty much know the skinny on him. I read an amazing book about Teddy Roosevelt "The River of Doubt" by Candice Millard about a crazy expedition Teddy and his son Kermit went on the Amazon. He came very close to dying of some illness.
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
Ok..so with U.S. history I can hang with the best of them..but my knowledge of this episode in human history is woefully lacking... Somebody chime in and let me know if my Reader's Digest hits the mark:
1. Dutch speaking farmers, Boers, settle southern Africa in the middle of the 19th century in a climate of increasing global competition for African colonial presence.
2. The British originally recognize two free independent Boer states but...
3. Diamonds are discovered and the Brits reneg. Jerks.
4. Brave Boers, against all odds, battle the British empire while also fighting indigenous peoples.
5. Boers perform well but are eventually overrun.
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"fighting indigenous peoples" The forgotten ones. They lost too.
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10:49:47am
re: The Boer War the real losers !
""fighting indigenous peoples" The forgotten ones. They lost too."
Ain't that the truth.
Bruce
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
In financial terms the British lost..everything had to be shipped to South Africa 10s of thousands of horses,mules whatever an army needed to function. It broke the bank.
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
Coincidence? When the Brits were advising the then-current Greek Government on how to resist an insurgency, one of their strategies included removing children from rebel villages.
For their protection, of course.
Here are some notes I wrote-up about the Missing Greek Children a few years ago:
"Thoughts on the Abduction of the Greek Children
First, let me extend my apologies to anyone who knows of these events thru their grandparents, their parents, or their own recollection.
I am going to engage in some 'fair-minded' speculation, and you might want to take a pass.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War#paidomazoma ... the Wikipedia entry
Let's all agree that the Greek Communists (hereinafter "GrecoCommies", or "GCs") moved children, out of the land of their habitual residence, to camps in a variety of East European countries.
Let's all agree that the Greek Provisional Government (hereinafter "PG") moved children, out of the towns of their habitual residence, to camps in other parts of Greece.
Let's all agree that, given the chance, each party would say it was acting to protect the children from the other party, or from the hazards of living in a war zone.
He said, she said, as we say.
Let's all agree that, even if we had the patience & resources, a laborius search of local newspapers, family diaries, etc, would be unlikely to get us back to a completely convincing prime cause.
(This last might not be true, as every surviving primary document *might* tell the same story. Cut me some slack.)
Let's all agree that the GrecoCommies were assisted by the Yugoslavs et al, and that the Provisional Government was assisted by the British. Ah, the British.
The British had, only a few years earlier, benignly evacuated *their* children from (many of) their cities, to the countryside, to get them out from under Luftwaffe bombardment.
Moreover, British troops, less than fifty years earlier, had roamed the countryside of southern Africa and, when a Boer farmer was not at home, forcibly removed his wife & children & whomever else to a concentration camp.
(If 'fifty years' sounds like too long a time to be relevant, you are not yet, say, fifty-five years old. Once you can remember things that happened fifty years ago, they are not 'history' ... they are 'yesterday'.)
I am not familiar with all of the details, but I'm willing to *guess* that the Brits publicly argued that those otherwise-unprotected Boer women & children would be safer if they were not all alone on those widely-scattered farms, and would quietly argue - to anyone who would listen - that the farmer's very absence proved that he had joined the rebels.
And, perhaps, not so quietly.
The idea of suppressing an insurrection by going after the rebels' children was not, at the time of the Greek Civil War, new.
The idea that some children should be taken away from their parents, in peacetime, for their own good, was centuries-old.
The idea that children should be enrolled in ideologically-correct(ing) Youth Movements to mould their character was not only old, but continues to this day, particularly in religious communities & secular totalitarian countries.
What happened to the Green children was appalling, but it was hardly one-sided.
I do not think we need to sort-out the 'he said, she said' as, in all likelihood, had either side not started evacuating children, the other would have done so on their own.
But, as seen by the Greek stamps of 1949, history is written by the victors."
Seems like the Greeks lost the Boer War, too.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: The Boer War the real losers !
OK, Ernie. Here goes. Deep breath ... and GO!
"Ok..so with U.S. history I can hang with the best of them..but my knowledge of this episode in human history is woefully lacking... Somebody chime in and let me know if my Reader's Digest hits the mark:
1. Dutch speaking farmers, Boers, settle southern Africa in the middle of the 19th century in a climate of increasing global competition for African colonial presence."
Settlement of the Cape goes back to the mid 1600s as a secure base for the Dutch East India Company. Early settlement was largely indentured servants and French Huguenots. The Company was not the most enlightened, and periodically groups of Dutch settlers would push inland to get away from the worst of it (the early 'treks'). Britain takes control of the Cape in 1806, since what was once Holland sided with Napoleon. They keep it to help secure the India route.
"2. The British originally recognize two free independent Boer states but..."
The Boer states aren't formed until after the 'Voortrek' ('Great Trek')in the 1830s, leading to a series of violent confrontations with the Xhosa and the Zulu, who weren't taking too kindly to European incursions into their lands. The Boer states were recognized as self-governing but under a British protectorate in 1854. This state of affairs continues until 1881 (First Anglo-Boer War) when Britain recognizes full independence of the two states. (combination of military incompetence and changes in political situation in Great Britain)
"3. Diamonds are discovered and the Brits reneg. Jerks."
Not diamonds, but gold. (The diamonds were old news). Transvaal is flooded with 'Uitlanders' (foreigners) in for the money. Boers were worried about losing control of control of their own nation and limit political rights of the Uitlanders, as well as boosting taxes. A number are discontented and grumble about rebelling. Enter Cecil Rhodes and Alfred Beit, who payroll a raid by 600 men into the Transvaal. The raid goes badly. The Colonial Secretary, Joseph Chamberlain knows about it, but it seems that no one else in the government does. Attempts to negotiate fail, then the Boers attack the British (yes, you read that right). However, the Brits were jerks.
"4. Brave Boers, against all odds, battle the British empire while also fighting indigenous peoples."
More or less true. Interestingly, the British government did not follow its military's advice to build up a large force in South Africa so as not to antagonize the Boers (the Prime Minister was not anxious for war, but the Colonial Office was working quitely to undermine the situation). The Boer treatment of the indigenous people is not a glowing moment in South African history.
"5. Boers perform well but are eventually overrun."
Not as well as the early histories would have you think. The Boers made serious errors as well, but were able to take advantage of British errors, incompetence and logistical problems. The actual 'war' was over in just over a year, but the Boers went on 'commando' and prolonged the fighting for another two, until Kitchener and Roberts embarked on cutting the countryside into boxes and strangling resistance through starvation and the concentration camps.
This is the slightly less abridged Reader's Digest version, Ernie. Still a number of gross generalizations. I'd suggest Pakenham if you've got a few weeks
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Phil:
Couldn't resist. Got Pakenham from the school library. My summer read ... Along with finishing off "A Soldier of the Great War."
-Darryl
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