Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
If you were selling items at a show and someone came up and walked off with a $10 stamp would you be upset ?
What would you expect to happen if you walked into the post office and asked for a $10 sheet of stamps and walked out the door without paying once the clerk handed it to you ?
What if your child or grandchild was arrested for shoplifting and while you were explaining to them how wrong that was they reminded you that you brag about how much money you save by cheating the post office ?? How do you explain why you can steal and they can't ??
Morally and ethically what you are doing is stealing, just like a common thief. It is not a victimless crime (and it is a crime). Everyone who uses the post office is impacted by your actions every time they buy a stamp.
When I grew up we were taught that stealing was wrong - why has that changed?
I assume that I am now a persona non grata around here so I will take a few months away from the discussion board. I am fed up and disappointed in what mankind has become and it is sickening to see otherwise grown up adults giddy at the thought of "getting away with something".
Sorry for the lecture ….
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Say what you think is a good motto to live by.
As an outsider looking in, I'm amazed that you guys in the US ever get things done. You seem to have so many rules and regulations.
In Australia, a customs declaration is only required for parcels. I can send a letter up to 50g (1.8oz) anywhere in the world for $3, or five times that for $9 Thats a lot of stamps! We have no need to bend rules in that regard.
Is the USPS taking the p***? Yes. However, if the buyer pays the postage, how does a seller lose? Follow the rules, charge the cost to your buyer, and sleep well at night!
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Webpaper, you raise some very good points.
I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering what prompted this. Is there a specific grievance you have?
PS never mind, I found the prior discussion. Are you a former Postal employee? Understand your feelings if so.
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You don't have to be a former postal employee to feel that way. I feel thte same way. I'm abiding by the law, for all my overseas sales, and I expect others to, also. On that same note, I also disagree with the practice used by many dealers of stocking up on "free" priority mail shippers, to cut up and use as stiffeners for their shipments.
Ted
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I see brand new (not reused) priority mail mailers used all the time from ebay sellers. The USPS could easily stop part of this by simply making them all prepaid so you have to buy them. I bet the costs for all those mailers used as packaging (stiffeners and not the external one) is more than lot of other lost revenue activities. We are all paying for this.
Al
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Interesting topic.
The only problem is, the thread title sucks !
But I'll wait awhile for the reason for the outburst to come to light.
In the end, all will be good.
In the end.
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06:53:48pm
" .... I bet the costs for all those mailers
used as packaging (stiffeners and not the external
one) is more than lot of other lost revenue
activities. We are all paying for this....."
Were I a betting man, I'd take that bet, because
compared to how many are used for the service intended,
and the expenses saved by encouraging their use through
efficiency and uniformity the cost of the number used
for other purposes is inconsequential.
Why would I think so ?
First off, officials of the postal service are closer
related to clever devils than damn fools and have no doubt
priced out the wastage cost to several decimal places.
Second, I have seen people at the post office counter
being surprised that the box or envelope that just fits
the parcel or documents they half-assedly wrapped and
possibly misaddressed is free, and they are quick,
almost gleeful, as they use the free box or fancy cardboard
envelope with the bright red and blue striping and have
"EXPRESS" or "PRIORITY" emblazoned, that they over pay
for the delivery service.
I think that the average person has no idea that the post office
provides the envelopes and boxes free of a charge. That is
based on the number of people who exhibit surprise when I
tell them, over the several years. Just one of the generally
efficient, reliable services that a well organized government
agency provides.
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"I think that the average person has no idea that the post office
provides the envelopes and boxes free of a charge."
Not according to what I have been told in the past.
"officials of the postal service are closer
related to clever devils than damn fools and have no doubt
priced out the wastage cost to several decimal places."
That is soooo true, and fits exactly how they operate, thus: To my knowledge, as I was told by a supervisor at my post office the postage cost for Priority and Express mail includes the cost of the special envelopes, boxes, etc.. So, if you ship something using Priority or Express Mail and do not use one of the post office-supplied boxes, but rather your own, then you are overpaying.
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08:07:57pm
I am not sure of that, Michael.
For years the business i worked for sent documents t
o finance companies often in other states that after
review and approval were signed and copies along with
a loan check returned, within, usually the business week.
At the time the Express mail charge was in the $8.00 to $9.95
range while first class mail was about $0.32 to $0.37.
I often brought up the subject of postage cost and benefits.
Two or three times I sent a first class letter with regular
postage at the same time the supposedly faster premium express
service envelope was mailed.
In the regular business mail ws a note to the recipient asking
her (In Raleigh NC she was a very sweet young girl named Samantha.)
to carefully return the corner of both envelopes with the cancelled
stamps to me and please and note when my Plain Jane envelope arrived
In most cases my test envelope arrived he same day or the morning
afterward. at least once my envelope arrived in two days while the
Special services envelope.
Most times Samantha would phone me on her lunch hour to chat about
the stamps I had used as her father had collected stamps. It was too bad
we were both already married and was approaching sixty years old.
I think my voice sounded a lot younger on the phone.
Bur to the point, I failed to see the benefit of using the Express Mail
$8.50 stamps for $0.32 worth of service, beyond that I acquired the
entire series of big ticket stamps in fine used condition. virtually free.
We were the ones who overpaid.
I had an almost similar arrangement with another mail clerk at a finance
company in Hartford, Connecticut.
Same result as too mail deliveries.
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A little bit of apples and oranges I think. I'm talking about paying for the service, you're talking about the service itself and whether or not the expedited services are worth their salt compared to first class mail. I think that what you have pointed out is the reason why the postal service changed the expected delivery time for first class mail from up to 3 days to up to 5 days. The expedited services, depending on which is purchased are from 1 to 3 days. A good point, but under a side subject to the overall picture.
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Someone made an edit of their post to mention a 'prior discussion'.
We are moving forward........
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This thread is a spin-off from the overseas postage costs thread.
Clive
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"This thread is a spin-off from the overseas postage costs thread.
Clive"
NO, it is not. The "overseas postage costs" thread deals with the costs and rules and regs of sending goods oversea.
This thread is titled "Disappointed" and deals with the disappointment I feel when otherwise law abiding stamp collectors feel that short paying postage to save $10 and then either bragging about it or explaining to others how to do it is just fine. It is morally and ethically reprehensible. It is stealing.
Read my initial post again - it is not a "spin-off" on the other one. It may have morphed in that direction but that is out of my control.
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I think we are all just trying to understand why the sudden outburst (I guess I should not assume and say "I am" or "was trying to understand"). Of all the things to have moral outrage about this seems a tad overblown, maybe, to us casual onlookers that don't sell very low value stamps in ones or twos and ship them overseas. No offense meant by this post by the way. Flying off the handle once in a while is healthy.
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Change the thread title is my advice, or the discussion will be lost forever.
As there was no explanation in the opening post and the thread title as it was, the whole discussion was just puzzling.
Notice to all......thread titles and then basic explanations are most important.
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Yeah, I have no clue what this is about, and it seems to relate only in the most remote sense to philately.
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Couldn't agree more with Mr. Bus if I tried.
Starting a discussion with one word or "Scott 55" is meaningless for everyone except the original poster
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What about the statements made by the OP?
Do you agree with this definition of cheating or do you think if you can get away with it it is ok or is there some middle ground?
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Carol's original post did not have to do with stamp collecting per se -
but it did have to do with stamp collectors.
Granted, her original post may have seemed trivial to some, but I believe that was part of her point. Stamp collectors, who otherwise seem to be honest as a whole, are - as Carol said - stealing from the post office in one form or another.
She makes a valid point.
Ultimately, there is no grey area - only right and wrong.
I think this is her point.
Carol, if I am wrong on this please correct me.
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"Ultimately, there is no grey area - only right and wrong."
Bingo - thank you Randy ..
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"Granted, her original post may have seemed trivial to some, but I believe that was part of her point. Stamp collectors, who otherwise seem to be honest as a whole, are - as Carol said - stealing from the post office in one form or another.
She makes a valid point.
Ultimately, there is no grey area - only right and wrong.
"
An analogy.. (Uncle Tom's Charming Story Time)
Back when I was young and managing my first department I had an employee who was below average to average. He was unkempt and messy. Every so often he'd have a great idea that justified his being there.
One afternoon he was leaving work. He paused at the gate to pull his car keys out of his jacket pocket and several packets of coffee fell out of his pocket... right in front of a guard! I find out about this the next morning from HR. My buddy was escorted off the property and was terminated.
As I spoke to the sage old head of HR he told me not to be upset that I lost this guy because dishonesty wasn't a one time thing, it was a way of life! Sure enough, in the following weeks we noticed that our office supplies (as well as coffee supply!) lasted longer. The coffee area stayed cleaner, no big coffee and sugar mess. Our restroom was cleaner too! (I won't go into details) So I took the advise to heart and it's help me in life.
So now when I see a dealer who cuts corners.. the guy who ships a box of covers media rate, misuses Priority Mail materials etc., that's when my radar goes up and I'm waiting to see how he will try to cheat me as well! Remember it's never just one thing!
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I think it is a good thread but disagree that ethics are black and white; in my opinion philately is full of ethical gray areas. Writing on the backs of stamps is an example; some think it is acceptable while others think it is not. ‘Trolling for suckers’ when listing stamps is another example. Some think it is fine to simply post an image while other feel calling out faults is important. Even defining what constitutes a fault or not is an ethical gray area.
Or one of my favorites, what do you do when a non-collector or clueless person offers you a collection, stamp or cover way under market value? Do you buy it and then congratulate yourself on a great buy or do inform them that they are under-valuing the material?
Other times our ethics may vacillate depending upon the situation. For example, what is considered unethical in this tight-knit community might be consider ethical on eBay.
I think ethics are subjective and each of us has our own ‘ethics bar’, how high or low that bar may be depends on the situation and the people involved.
Don
Edit: Folks can do an online search on the key words 'ethical gray areas' to find many articles, books, and papers written on this subject.
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Carol, thanks for your post. I have been feeling this way for a long time, even starting the thread in the HipStamp forum, basically asking what M.R. was going to do about it. Apparently... not a thing.
I, too, feel that the honest, law-abiding person is getting screwed. To be frank, sales are taking a hit, because those that opt to ignore these rules are severely undercutting our business, particularly for the cheaper stamps and smaller orders where postage costs are huge proportionally. Are they bad people? No. Are they breaking the law and taking advantage of a current apparent lack of policing? Yes. Maybe most view it like breaking the speed limit? Thinking "yeah, well, we all do it it. what's the big deal?". Maybe that's the attitude? I don't know. But when we're talking federal issues and penalties that are potentially more severe than a speeding ticket, I for one am not taking that chance... but I have to admit it is tempting to put your foot on that accelerator when you see everyone else getting away with it. It does become a question of conscience, as well as a fear of that unlikelihood of being made an example of. I think the only way it can be corrected is if items are returned insufficient postage, or the buyers end up getting charged postage due and there is an outcry. But I don't see it happening.
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I agree that it is not always black and white but there are differences in the examples. There are also degrees. One event is not the same as others. There is no law that says you cannot write on back of stamps unless you signed up to some group that you agreed to abide the rules.
Shipping via media rate when it does not qualify is not honoring the terms one agreed in order to deprive the USPS of revenue.
Financial gain is often a key aspect.
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"...Financial gain is often a key aspect."
Hi Al,
Agreed. It is far easier to be ethical if the behavior is also easy on your wallet. Saving a few pennies on cheating the postal service is (for me) not worth selling out my ethics.
Another typical stamp hobbyist ethical decision is about supporting sellers (or others like the magazine publisher mentioned in the other thread) who you know to have damaged the hobby. Do we put aside the ethics and support them if they have something we want?
So I mildly disagree with what Tom posted about if a person is unethical with one thing they will be unethical in all things. Based upon the famous Milgram experiment, researchers found some 'shocking' (pun intended) things about ethics and money.
https://www.wired.com/2011/04/shocking-experiment-money/
Don
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The question is how far you take blacklisting. There are some I will not do business with because of prior activities.
For example, if one did not want to do business with Greg Manning do you start not doing business with Kelleher since he does? If there is an APS member one does not like because they tried to bypass the bylaws, does one leave APS? Does one quit using ebay because of their rating system is bogus. Everyone makes their own decision.
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Blacklisting or selling out? I think that Carol was talking about people selling out their ethics for a relatively small amount of money. I also think that some folks may will take a strong ethical stance but then lower their ethical bar and sell out when there is a larger amount of money or desire involved. Carol was making the point (I think) that folks should be consistent. I was trying to explore how far folks felt that consistency should be extended. I thought the Kelleher magazine example was interesting since it is free and relatively easy to avoid supporting (or promoting).
I think things get uglier when it comes to wanting something badly or if large amounts of money are involved. If a collector has been looking for something for a long time and it comes up for sale from a known philatelic criminal they might hold their nose, sell out by supporting the notorious seller, and buying the item. How does that person compare to the people that Carol was posting about; is that better or worse ethically? Or is it the same; a person who sells out at any level or any situation is bad?
Don
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There is no logical way to continue to discuss/debate this thread without entering into the realm of religious beliefs;
I hold firm to MY belief that religion should only be discussed in person -
not on a chat board.
As such, I will step back and refrain from any further postings here.
No anger/malice/hard feelings intended here.
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Are you suggesting a required link between ethics and religion?
Ethics is the belief in doing right, based on a set of moral principles individual to each person. It is not the exclusive domain of those with religion.
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I would be happy to discuss this in private, but not here.
Religion is too deeply personal to discuss on a chat board.
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I agree with Dave. For example, we can discuss the ethics of posting the contents of an old letter (which folks do fairly regularly in this community and our hobby). Is it ethical to do this when we have no idea if the original writer meant for the letter to stay private? This question can stand on its own ethical criteria without any religious correlation.
Of course religion can certainly be pulled into the discussion but it is clearly optional. Ethics do not equal religion. But religion contains ethics. An atheist can certainly have ethics.
Don
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This is where I would be diving in right now . . . if this had been a philosophy forum.
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At least I am no longer disappointed with the thread title.
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Hi Everyone;
Randy said;
"Religion is too deeply personal to discuss on a chat board."
That is why I refrained from making a reply....
TuskenRaider
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"There is no logical way to continue to discuss/debate this thread without entering into the realm of religious beliefs;"
My religion does not tell me what a "logical way to continue" might/not be.
But my logic tells me that those motivated to continue the discussion in a logical way could draw illuminating analogies to the disappointing behavior from other fields.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey (unmotivated, but resisting people telling other people being told the terms under which they may/not continue a discussion)
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I don't send low-priced stamps via USPS to international customers. Were I to do so, I would consider flaunting the law and might pop them in an envelope and send them via a cheaper method. Sometimes laws are stupid, sometimes they're not. Each person must decided for themselves. Is it akin to stealing? Maybe. But maybe its just stupid. There are far worse things going on in this world than a few folks saving a few pennies in this super-lucrative high-growth industry of selling nearly worthless stamps.
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I agree that laws do not trump ethics. After all, it is obvious that some laws in Nazi Germany were not ethical.
But I think that we have to be careful about how we use this justification. I do not think it can be used for a selfish justification but rather as a justification for fighting and changing the law (perhaps even to the extent of civil disobedience).
For example, say I think that the local speed limit law is wrong/bad. This means I should proactively work to change it, write letters to the editor of my local newspaper, or organization demonstrations to rally support for changing it. But waiting until I get a speeding ticket and then suddenly start complaining that the local speed limit law is wrong/bad would indicate that I had selfish motives in using that justification.
Don
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09:55:03pm
"... Ethics do not equal religion.
But religion contains ethics.
An atheist can certainly have ethics. ..."
These few and short sentences could fill
all the threads and topics (bandwith)
on this site as well as others, in fact,
judging the books I have read, they already have.
But I want to add one comment or thought.
Ethics do not equal religion, so true.
And while Religious thought may contain ethics,
Religion does necessarily not equal ethics either.
As for Atheism, people often, perhaps usually,
become non-believers, because they no longer
feel it is ethical to pretend to be religious
when their "sincere beliefs" are otherwise.
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The bigger question is when do these lapses change how your behavior in any type of relationship with the person?
1. Seller of improperly described material
2. Makes statements that are often false (philatelic or otherwise)
3. Committed non-philatelic crimes (charged or not)
4. Abusive behavior (these are usually the bullies in person or online)
5. Chronic hypocrites
Some may judge associating with these types is condoning their behavior.
In my case,
1. I do business with some "bad" sellers but avoid others as long as I know what I am getting.
2. This is my hot button but some may think this is like above.
3. I would avoid interaction with them
4. This is variable depending on situation
5. I avoid these as well.
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Integrity and character is what we do when no one is looking or when we are willing to do the right thing at personal cost.
I find it very easy to skip over listing of seller's who I feel are damaging the hobby when the listing is not something that I really need or want. But the real test of my integrity and character what I do when the same unethical seller has something that I really need or want.
In years past I would sometimes put my self-interests ahead of doing the right thing. But having to deal with a terminal illness has helped me become a better person in recent years. Feeling like I am living on ‘bonus time’ made me understand that I only have a finite amount of time to do the right thing in life. It is now easier for me to make these kinds of gray area ethical decisions.
Don
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Jings!...Crivvens!...Help Ma Boab!
What touchy folkies!!
It never fails to amaze me how intolerant people can be and how they get riled by some one else's point of view over such meaningless and trivial statements.
Was your life threatened?
Did you suffer severe injury?
Was any of your family/relatives threatened by the comments.
NAY! NAY! and thrice NAY!
There are bigger problems in the world that need addressing.
The fact is the universe does not revolve around YOU, there are several billions of US.
If you are upset over this then may I quote "Who Cares".
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Chris,Vince & Don,
I'm assuming you all are for open, intelligent discussion based upon facts rather than hype. If so, we are all in agreement. If you are pointing out that perhaps this particular board isn't the appropriate place for that, indeed you may be correct and I have erred in posting my comments here. Allow me to offer an apology to those who view the board strictly as a channel to be kept focused just on the philatelic material. I do encourage both explorations, philatelic and other, and can rightfully be chastised for perhaps offending. Truly I didn't mean for any offense and I can respect that point of view.
All that being said, we ought not to allow our intellect to be dulled by exposure to hype, and always insist upon facts.
Best,
Dan C.
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Moderator hat on:
No political discussion.
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"Why hasn't that drivel been deleted?"
To remind you of what happens whenever such discussions get started that they always wind up like this.
To remind you why we have a rule about non-philatelic discussions.
To remind you that when we do delete such a post, we get blasted for being Nazis, selective censorship, violating free speech, etc., and we get threatened (often in private messages) for having done so by some wonderful stamp collectors.
To remind you that the moderators have a thankless job, who despite their efforts to keep a friendly atmosphere and stay out of most frays, that some have to try to take advantage of the situation and put the moderators into the uncomfortable situation of having to take action whereby the moderators are attacked for having done so.
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And now for something really disappointing from a philatelic sense!
I have managed to tear in half the only mint stamp I had for Cochin China which I was attempting to remove from my Minkus Supreme Global album to move it to my Smithsonian Stamp for Every Country album. Worse, about two hours later I managed to do the same thing for a Tahiti stamp which was severely stuck down. 
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See what I mean? Some just can't resist opening their mouths with political speak even when it is laid out to them to let it die off.
ON STAMPORAMA TALK ABOUT STAMPS OR OTHER HOBBIES. THIS IS A HOBBY SITE, NOT A NEWS COMMENTARY SITE. IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT POLITICS GO TO A WEB SITE DESIGNED FOR THAT PURPOSE! MOST COLLECTORS HERE DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS, AND WE DO NOT WANT THOSE COLLECTORS TO LEAVE THIS SITE BECAUSE OF THIS. IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE RULES ABOUT NO POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS, NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO STAY HERE, AND YOU WON'T BE MISSED. 
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"Well folks, the thread title is appropriate at last !"
It was appropriate the very moment the key for the 'd' was clicked !!
Poor thread title
Poor responses to an unknown subject
Poor explanations
Too many discussions for one single thread and (poor) title.
Mods should do the right thing and get rid of it. It's not that difficult.
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Aye Politics Politics Politics.
It beggars belief that people get so hot and bothered over groups of non-entities.
The way I look at it is that if the politicians are fighting among themselves they are leaving US alone.
WE can get on with our lives, puting food on the table, enjoying our hobbies and appreciating the wonders of nature. (I was watching a red squirrel this morning).
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I find stamps to be a safe haven from contemporary events.
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This has been, mostly, an incredibly fascinating and informative topic, getting to incredible philosophical issues expressed, mostly, in a polite and curious fashion. Thank you all who participated in that part for your wonderful thoughts and commentary.
And I just spent 10 minutes of my morning cleaning up the political froth. Do you even pretend to read the rules or care? You know better, I know you do, because I've talked privately to almost all of you about this very thing.
I've tried to be judicious in deleting stuff. If I deleted something that wasn't political and didn't quote something from an earlier political post, please excuse me. There were some things I would have preferred to keep, but they were comingled with stuff that wasn't fair to keep.
Feel free to continue discussing the original, non-political thread's topic.
in conclusion, I refer you all to one of Phil's more recent posts on this thread.
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I do not mind my post being deleted along with the others and I have restrained myself numerous times from posting a retort of sorts when folks display, how does one characterize this?
But, when the door is opened and the politics comes in, I find it extremely hard to refrain from representing an opposite point of view rather than let the other opposite point of view exist unchallenged for a time before or if it is finally removed.
Perhaps, this is why we do not encourage current political discussion. It's simple, really simple and I suppose that makes it difficult for some.
Bruce
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Thank you David for the clarifications and directions to be followed. You. along with many others quoted are focusing upon the light rather than the heat. The light is our hobby, respect for one another, and the willingness to share. The heat is the froth you wisely eliminated. To the extent that I personally added to the heat rather than the light, I am responsible and beg forgiveness. On the heat end though, since I do feel strongly as do some others, may I invite that part of the discussion to be continued by personal email to me and we'll put together a group exploration of the political end. Or not!
Best,
Dan C.
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I believe there is no excuse for political discussion on a hobby board. a lot of us spend time on here and other discussion boards in an effort to escape from the madness we see daily on the news and in our lives.
I stopped attending one local club over this issue. Others have, as well. I hate to see it creeping in here. And now I'm moving on.
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I am opposed to opening up this forum to political debate again. I lost a good friend over this. She simply couldn't handle it. No one's mind ever got changed. Let's talk about fun stuff, neat stuff, our hobbies and our families. If you hate President Trump, get involved in your local political scene.
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06:03:49pm
" ... The light is our hobby,
respect for one another,
and the willingness to share. ..."
certainly a wise aphorism.
I must have missed something and am glad I did.
I think we were discussing some of the ethical problems
stampers encounter in the day to day effort
to handle our stamps and several fine points were raised
for others to consider as they ply the highways and byways
of the worlds, probably. most interesting hobby.
One added thing is that postage stamp and cover collections
in their several forms are affected by current events
or by often rather intriguing events of the past.
Occasionally the connection is obvious, at other times
only obvious to some dedicated members.
So every sentence should not be required to meet
the exacting standards of some of our more, shall I say,
delicately intense, members.
I thought I had enjoyed this discussion so I suppose
I missed something, I should excuse my self and reread it
see if I can find the reason I should be offended.
I wonder if I should have called the lead-in comment
as an "epigram," in place of an "aphorism.
But I'll not mention it here as it would be better
to find a forum dedicated to the collision
between word forms.
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Ya know, I had a sucky day. I hate Verizon, I hate Walmart, especially their pharmacy. Both of them played a part in my day sucking!
Soooooo.... I finally got home about 15 minutes ago. I cracked open a fine Pennsylvania Lager and settled in to be entertained and enlightened by the magical world of stamps, that will make all my troubles go away.
Now everyone go back to your albums, your hoard and even that pile of covers on the floor.... scan something, and post something purely philatelic and entertaining. I really need it! 
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Yo Tom...you don't drink Yuengling do you?
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Yes Ernie! The last American owned brewer! And the next time we get together I’d be pleased to hoist one with you!
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Sounds good Tom...I still can't believe Budweiser is a foreign owned company. I saw the commercial for Yuengling's new pilsner. I gotta pick up a 6 pack!
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A fine Pennsylvania lager? Not possible! Canadian lager, now that's lager! OK, I'll admit it, I've never had a lager made in PA.
I've been enjoying Canadian brew ever since being introduced to it by a colleague at Canadian Press shortly after moving to Ottawa from Missouri in 1969. I'd never had anything that good in the U.S. Several micro-breweries in Vancouver are now producing really good lagers. Canadian wine has improved to a remarkable degree. When my wife and I moved to Vancouver in 1971, British Columbia beer tasted like it was made from bars of ivory soap. No more. Great stuff!
A curious thing: During my time in South Vietnam, during the Vietnam War, I had two drinks — perhaps an ounce or two of Japanese whisky (about a dozen Marines and corpsmen were sharing a single bottle), and a can of Canadian beer — Carling Black Label — which our battalion surgeon brought back with him after trip out to the ship that disembarked us, the U.S.S. Paul Revere. Why not American beer? I have no idea. But it was wet, cold, and welcome! Some pertinent social history about the war: My battalion was "inserted" into Vietnam early in the war, in January, 1966. The only "drugs" that I saw in use were the Japanese whiskey and Black Label beer that I mentioned. No marijuana, no cocaine, no heroin. Of course, if I'd had a joint or some heroin, I might not have PTSD! That would be nice....
Bob
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PTSD, ? post traumatic stamp disorder?
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That's it! Post Traumatic Stamp Disorder, best treated with Canadian lager and wine! 
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The last time I looked (a few days ago) there were hundreds of independent American beer breweries. Some of these are quite good actually.
But I am really very disappointed to see this thread being hijacked and turned into some alcoholic chit chat. I really hope the moderators put an end to this and everybody sticks to their stamps (hmmm... that sounds funny). Perhaps start a topic about beer and wine on stamps or combined with stamping?
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Yes, Jan, we need a "Stamporama Beer Hall" to go with the "Stamporama Diner"!
-Paul
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I agree with Jansimon. It's disgraceful that stamp collectors, who only drink when alcohol is available for free, saving their money for stamps, should promote the idea of drink! That's like a wine company promoting stamp collecting. Oh, wait, I think that's already happening! And it's really good wine, aged in kangaroo pouches and then transported on ships returning to England after transporting prisoners to Australia.
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funny, Bob, I thought only beers were hoppy.
i might just fancy a wee snort of the twoo rwoo cab
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I do not recommend bidding on ebay while under the influence. You may be disappointed.
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Bob, i couldn't help thinking of a certain Monty Python sketch about Australian wines: this is a bottle with a message in, and the message is BEWARE!. This is not a wine for drinking -- this is a wine for laying down and avoiding.
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02:26:15am
The favored Japanese whiskey was "Suntory",
decent tasting, and both very alcoholic and
inexpensive. I think I still have a receipt
showing ¥750 per liter when it was 300¥ to
a US dollar (Script). Better for about two
greenbacks. But the hangover for excessive
consumption was a sharp frontal lobe pain
I do not remember how many Ding-Dongs
it was in Saigon.
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"But I am really very disappointed to see this thread being hijacked and turned into some alcoholic chit chat. I really hope the moderators put an end to this and everybody sticks to their stamps (hmmm... that sounds funny). Perhaps start a topic about beer and wine on stamps or combined with stamping?"
Okay, here's my Franklin cover most closely associated with beer!
Note that this thread wasn't about stamps to begin with. And everyone is having fun. I was at my model car club meeting yesterday. Small summer meeting, 10 people in attendance. Sometimes those are the best meetings. We all sat around one long table and had the opportunity to just talk, while we ate our pizza (we have food at every meeting).
I noticed that the conversation went off topic and wandered with personal topics, like vacations, the current state of Wildwood (beach area), and somehow landed on the topic of the NY Worlds Fair. One guy said he always regretted not going.. I innocently asked if he meant 1964 or 1939? Then the topic became why there hasn't been a Worlds Fair in a while... so we asked Siri, we pulled up the list of every Worlds Fair ever, and saw that there is still a Worlds Fair, just that there hasn't been one in the USA in over a dozen years.
Since I had my phone out, I pulled up the images of the Worlds Fair items I had recently purchased on eBay. Enjoyed by all. Then to pull the conversation on topic I showed them the Greyhound flyer from the 1964 fair, that had the futuristic "Escorter" which were 4 person golf cart type vehicles that worked liked taxis at the fair. These eventually wound up on the Atlantic City boardwalk and one pops up in NJ every so often. I know of one that was restored, and I've been trying to get the owner to allow me to photograph and measure it off to scratch build a model. So we do eventually wander back on topic.
I'd invite you to come with me, but I only have one ticket!
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11:53:54pm
" ....Since I had my phone out, I pulled up the images
of the Worlds Fair items I had recently purchased ...."
My mother frequently told of visiting the 1939 World's Fair
and she and my dad bought many of the crass souvenirs being
sold there. However, she also detected the first and second
of the series of contractions that led to a quick drive
to Good Samaritan Hospital in Brooklyn where she had a C-section
due to the apparent breech birth position of her nine pound,
six ounce, living souvenir.
I have been doing things bass-ackwards ever since.
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Best world's fair story ever!
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Lager ?
Girly beer!!
( - also drunk by Estate Agents ( Realtors), Bookmakers,Professional Soccer Players and their WAGS ( Wives and girlfriends ), High Court Judges, Lawyers,Ruperts (army officers), Antique Dealers, Used Car Salesmen, Politicians ( of all parties and persuasions ),Stock Exchange, insurance & Financial Services Staff, inhabitants living south and east of the Wash/Severn Estuary Axis and other undesirable members of society ! LOL)
REAL MEN drink ALE known in England as Bitter and Scotland as Heavy. Preferably northern beer - not the watery stuff brewed in the south for southern jessies.
Just in case anyone gets upset I am just exercising the prejudices of my Northern working-class roots in a light hearted manner ( some of my best friends are Southern jessies !- and I am even acquainted with other categories mentioned above).
I wouldn't normally have included the last paragraph, and leave it for you to realise the tongue in cheek nature of my comments, but as a result of reactions elsewhere took the cowards way out and played safe.
Malcolm
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Why did the Scots let that Roman, Hadrian, build a wall from coast to coast?
It was to keep the weak English ale out of Scotland!!!!
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"It was to keep the weak English ale out of Scotland!!!!"
Long live the old uisce beatha.
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To all of you who feel that cheating the USPS out of a few dollars at a time is OK I have a few questions for you.
If you were selling items at a show and someone came up and walked off with a $10 stamp would you be upset ?
What would you expect to happen if you walked into the post office and asked for a $10 sheet of stamps and walked out the door without paying once the clerk handed it to you ?
What if your child or grandchild was arrested for shoplifting and while you were explaining to them how wrong that was they reminded you that you brag about how much money you save by cheating the post office ?? How do you explain why you can steal and they can't ??
Morally and ethically what you are doing is stealing, just like a common thief. It is not a victimless crime (and it is a crime). Everyone who uses the post office is impacted by your actions every time they buy a stamp.
When I grew up we were taught that stealing was wrong - why has that changed?
I assume that I am now a persona non grata around here so I will take a few months away from the discussion board. I am fed up and disappointed in what mankind has become and it is sickening to see otherwise grown up adults giddy at the thought of "getting away with something".
Sorry for the lecture ….
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re: Disappointed
Say what you think is a good motto to live by.
As an outsider looking in, I'm amazed that you guys in the US ever get things done. You seem to have so many rules and regulations.
In Australia, a customs declaration is only required for parcels. I can send a letter up to 50g (1.8oz) anywhere in the world for $3, or five times that for $9 Thats a lot of stamps! We have no need to bend rules in that regard.
Is the USPS taking the p***? Yes. However, if the buyer pays the postage, how does a seller lose? Follow the rules, charge the cost to your buyer, and sleep well at night!
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re: Disappointed
Webpaper, you raise some very good points.
I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering what prompted this. Is there a specific grievance you have?
PS never mind, I found the prior discussion. Are you a former Postal employee? Understand your feelings if so.
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re: Disappointed
You don't have to be a former postal employee to feel that way. I feel thte same way. I'm abiding by the law, for all my overseas sales, and I expect others to, also. On that same note, I also disagree with the practice used by many dealers of stocking up on "free" priority mail shippers, to cut up and use as stiffeners for their shipments.
Ted
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re: Disappointed
I see brand new (not reused) priority mail mailers used all the time from ebay sellers. The USPS could easily stop part of this by simply making them all prepaid so you have to buy them. I bet the costs for all those mailers used as packaging (stiffeners and not the external one) is more than lot of other lost revenue activities. We are all paying for this.
Al
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re: Disappointed
Interesting topic.
The only problem is, the thread title sucks !
But I'll wait awhile for the reason for the outburst to come to light.
In the end, all will be good.
In the end.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
25 Jul 2018
06:53:48pm
re: Disappointed
" .... I bet the costs for all those mailers
used as packaging (stiffeners and not the external
one) is more than lot of other lost revenue
activities. We are all paying for this....."
Were I a betting man, I'd take that bet, because
compared to how many are used for the service intended,
and the expenses saved by encouraging their use through
efficiency and uniformity the cost of the number used
for other purposes is inconsequential.
Why would I think so ?
First off, officials of the postal service are closer
related to clever devils than damn fools and have no doubt
priced out the wastage cost to several decimal places.
Second, I have seen people at the post office counter
being surprised that the box or envelope that just fits
the parcel or documents they half-assedly wrapped and
possibly misaddressed is free, and they are quick,
almost gleeful, as they use the free box or fancy cardboard
envelope with the bright red and blue striping and have
"EXPRESS" or "PRIORITY" emblazoned, that they over pay
for the delivery service.
I think that the average person has no idea that the post office
provides the envelopes and boxes free of a charge. That is
based on the number of people who exhibit surprise when I
tell them, over the several years. Just one of the generally
efficient, reliable services that a well organized government
agency provides.
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re: Disappointed
"I think that the average person has no idea that the post office
provides the envelopes and boxes free of a charge."
Not according to what I have been told in the past.
"officials of the postal service are closer
related to clever devils than damn fools and have no doubt
priced out the wastage cost to several decimal places."
That is soooo true, and fits exactly how they operate, thus: To my knowledge, as I was told by a supervisor at my post office the postage cost for Priority and Express mail includes the cost of the special envelopes, boxes, etc.. So, if you ship something using Priority or Express Mail and do not use one of the post office-supplied boxes, but rather your own, then you are overpaying.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
25 Jul 2018
08:07:57pm
re: Disappointed
I am not sure of that, Michael.
For years the business i worked for sent documents t
o finance companies often in other states that after
review and approval were signed and copies along with
a loan check returned, within, usually the business week.
At the time the Express mail charge was in the $8.00 to $9.95
range while first class mail was about $0.32 to $0.37.
I often brought up the subject of postage cost and benefits.
Two or three times I sent a first class letter with regular
postage at the same time the supposedly faster premium express
service envelope was mailed.
In the regular business mail ws a note to the recipient asking
her (In Raleigh NC she was a very sweet young girl named Samantha.)
to carefully return the corner of both envelopes with the cancelled
stamps to me and please and note when my Plain Jane envelope arrived
In most cases my test envelope arrived he same day or the morning
afterward. at least once my envelope arrived in two days while the
Special services envelope.
Most times Samantha would phone me on her lunch hour to chat about
the stamps I had used as her father had collected stamps. It was too bad
we were both already married and was approaching sixty years old.
I think my voice sounded a lot younger on the phone.
Bur to the point, I failed to see the benefit of using the Express Mail
$8.50 stamps for $0.32 worth of service, beyond that I acquired the
entire series of big ticket stamps in fine used condition. virtually free.
We were the ones who overpaid.
I had an almost similar arrangement with another mail clerk at a finance
company in Hartford, Connecticut.
Same result as too mail deliveries.
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re: Disappointed
A little bit of apples and oranges I think. I'm talking about paying for the service, you're talking about the service itself and whether or not the expedited services are worth their salt compared to first class mail. I think that what you have pointed out is the reason why the postal service changed the expected delivery time for first class mail from up to 3 days to up to 5 days. The expedited services, depending on which is purchased are from 1 to 3 days. A good point, but under a side subject to the overall picture.
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re: Disappointed
Someone made an edit of their post to mention a 'prior discussion'.
We are moving forward........
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re: Disappointed
This thread is a spin-off from the overseas postage costs thread.
Clive
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re: Disappointed
"This thread is a spin-off from the overseas postage costs thread.
Clive"
NO, it is not. The "overseas postage costs" thread deals with the costs and rules and regs of sending goods oversea.
This thread is titled "Disappointed" and deals with the disappointment I feel when otherwise law abiding stamp collectors feel that short paying postage to save $10 and then either bragging about it or explaining to others how to do it is just fine. It is morally and ethically reprehensible. It is stealing.
Read my initial post again - it is not a "spin-off" on the other one. It may have morphed in that direction but that is out of my control.
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re: Disappointed
I think we are all just trying to understand why the sudden outburst (I guess I should not assume and say "I am" or "was trying to understand"). Of all the things to have moral outrage about this seems a tad overblown, maybe, to us casual onlookers that don't sell very low value stamps in ones or twos and ship them overseas. No offense meant by this post by the way. Flying off the handle once in a while is healthy.
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re: Disappointed
Change the thread title is my advice, or the discussion will be lost forever.
As there was no explanation in the opening post and the thread title as it was, the whole discussion was just puzzling.
Notice to all......thread titles and then basic explanations are most important.
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re: Disappointed
Yeah, I have no clue what this is about, and it seems to relate only in the most remote sense to philately.
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re: Disappointed
Couldn't agree more with Mr. Bus if I tried.
Starting a discussion with one word or "Scott 55" is meaningless for everyone except the original poster
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re: Disappointed
What about the statements made by the OP?
Do you agree with this definition of cheating or do you think if you can get away with it it is ok or is there some middle ground?
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re: Disappointed
Carol's original post did not have to do with stamp collecting per se -
but it did have to do with stamp collectors.
Granted, her original post may have seemed trivial to some, but I believe that was part of her point. Stamp collectors, who otherwise seem to be honest as a whole, are - as Carol said - stealing from the post office in one form or another.
She makes a valid point.
Ultimately, there is no grey area - only right and wrong.
I think this is her point.
Carol, if I am wrong on this please correct me.
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re: Disappointed
"Ultimately, there is no grey area - only right and wrong."
Bingo - thank you Randy ..
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re: Disappointed
"Granted, her original post may have seemed trivial to some, but I believe that was part of her point. Stamp collectors, who otherwise seem to be honest as a whole, are - as Carol said - stealing from the post office in one form or another.
She makes a valid point.
Ultimately, there is no grey area - only right and wrong.
"
An analogy.. (Uncle Tom's Charming Story Time)
Back when I was young and managing my first department I had an employee who was below average to average. He was unkempt and messy. Every so often he'd have a great idea that justified his being there.
One afternoon he was leaving work. He paused at the gate to pull his car keys out of his jacket pocket and several packets of coffee fell out of his pocket... right in front of a guard! I find out about this the next morning from HR. My buddy was escorted off the property and was terminated.
As I spoke to the sage old head of HR he told me not to be upset that I lost this guy because dishonesty wasn't a one time thing, it was a way of life! Sure enough, in the following weeks we noticed that our office supplies (as well as coffee supply!) lasted longer. The coffee area stayed cleaner, no big coffee and sugar mess. Our restroom was cleaner too! (I won't go into details) So I took the advise to heart and it's help me in life.
So now when I see a dealer who cuts corners.. the guy who ships a box of covers media rate, misuses Priority Mail materials etc., that's when my radar goes up and I'm waiting to see how he will try to cheat me as well! Remember it's never just one thing!
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re: Disappointed
I think it is a good thread but disagree that ethics are black and white; in my opinion philately is full of ethical gray areas. Writing on the backs of stamps is an example; some think it is acceptable while others think it is not. ‘Trolling for suckers’ when listing stamps is another example. Some think it is fine to simply post an image while other feel calling out faults is important. Even defining what constitutes a fault or not is an ethical gray area.
Or one of my favorites, what do you do when a non-collector or clueless person offers you a collection, stamp or cover way under market value? Do you buy it and then congratulate yourself on a great buy or do inform them that they are under-valuing the material?
Other times our ethics may vacillate depending upon the situation. For example, what is considered unethical in this tight-knit community might be consider ethical on eBay.
I think ethics are subjective and each of us has our own ‘ethics bar’, how high or low that bar may be depends on the situation and the people involved.
Don
Edit: Folks can do an online search on the key words 'ethical gray areas' to find many articles, books, and papers written on this subject.
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re: Disappointed
Carol, thanks for your post. I have been feeling this way for a long time, even starting the thread in the HipStamp forum, basically asking what M.R. was going to do about it. Apparently... not a thing.
I, too, feel that the honest, law-abiding person is getting screwed. To be frank, sales are taking a hit, because those that opt to ignore these rules are severely undercutting our business, particularly for the cheaper stamps and smaller orders where postage costs are huge proportionally. Are they bad people? No. Are they breaking the law and taking advantage of a current apparent lack of policing? Yes. Maybe most view it like breaking the speed limit? Thinking "yeah, well, we all do it it. what's the big deal?". Maybe that's the attitude? I don't know. But when we're talking federal issues and penalties that are potentially more severe than a speeding ticket, I for one am not taking that chance... but I have to admit it is tempting to put your foot on that accelerator when you see everyone else getting away with it. It does become a question of conscience, as well as a fear of that unlikelihood of being made an example of. I think the only way it can be corrected is if items are returned insufficient postage, or the buyers end up getting charged postage due and there is an outcry. But I don't see it happening.
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re: Disappointed
I agree that it is not always black and white but there are differences in the examples. There are also degrees. One event is not the same as others. There is no law that says you cannot write on back of stamps unless you signed up to some group that you agreed to abide the rules.
Shipping via media rate when it does not qualify is not honoring the terms one agreed in order to deprive the USPS of revenue.
Financial gain is often a key aspect.
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re: Disappointed
"...Financial gain is often a key aspect."
Hi Al,
Agreed. It is far easier to be ethical if the behavior is also easy on your wallet. Saving a few pennies on cheating the postal service is (for me) not worth selling out my ethics.
Another typical stamp hobbyist ethical decision is about supporting sellers (or others like the magazine publisher mentioned in the other thread) who you know to have damaged the hobby. Do we put aside the ethics and support them if they have something we want?
So I mildly disagree with what Tom posted about if a person is unethical with one thing they will be unethical in all things. Based upon the famous Milgram experiment, researchers found some 'shocking' (pun intended) things about ethics and money.
https://www.wired.com/2011/04/shocking-experiment-money/
Don
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re: Disappointed
The question is how far you take blacklisting. There are some I will not do business with because of prior activities.
For example, if one did not want to do business with Greg Manning do you start not doing business with Kelleher since he does? If there is an APS member one does not like because they tried to bypass the bylaws, does one leave APS? Does one quit using ebay because of their rating system is bogus. Everyone makes their own decision.
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re: Disappointed
Blacklisting or selling out? I think that Carol was talking about people selling out their ethics for a relatively small amount of money. I also think that some folks may will take a strong ethical stance but then lower their ethical bar and sell out when there is a larger amount of money or desire involved. Carol was making the point (I think) that folks should be consistent. I was trying to explore how far folks felt that consistency should be extended. I thought the Kelleher magazine example was interesting since it is free and relatively easy to avoid supporting (or promoting).
I think things get uglier when it comes to wanting something badly or if large amounts of money are involved. If a collector has been looking for something for a long time and it comes up for sale from a known philatelic criminal they might hold their nose, sell out by supporting the notorious seller, and buying the item. How does that person compare to the people that Carol was posting about; is that better or worse ethically? Or is it the same; a person who sells out at any level or any situation is bad?
Don
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re: Disappointed
There is no logical way to continue to discuss/debate this thread without entering into the realm of religious beliefs;
I hold firm to MY belief that religion should only be discussed in person -
not on a chat board.
As such, I will step back and refrain from any further postings here.
No anger/malice/hard feelings intended here.
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re: Disappointed
Are you suggesting a required link between ethics and religion?
Ethics is the belief in doing right, based on a set of moral principles individual to each person. It is not the exclusive domain of those with religion.
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re: Disappointed
I would be happy to discuss this in private, but not here.
Religion is too deeply personal to discuss on a chat board.
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re: Disappointed
I agree with Dave. For example, we can discuss the ethics of posting the contents of an old letter (which folks do fairly regularly in this community and our hobby). Is it ethical to do this when we have no idea if the original writer meant for the letter to stay private? This question can stand on its own ethical criteria without any religious correlation.
Of course religion can certainly be pulled into the discussion but it is clearly optional. Ethics do not equal religion. But religion contains ethics. An atheist can certainly have ethics.
Don
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re: Disappointed
This is where I would be diving in right now . . . if this had been a philosophy forum.
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re: Disappointed
At least I am no longer disappointed with the thread title.
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re: Disappointed
Hi Everyone;
Randy said;
"Religion is too deeply personal to discuss on a chat board."
That is why I refrained from making a reply....
TuskenRaider
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re: Disappointed
"There is no logical way to continue to discuss/debate this thread without entering into the realm of religious beliefs;"
My religion does not tell me what a "logical way to continue" might/not be.
But my logic tells me that those motivated to continue the discussion in a logical way could draw illuminating analogies to the disappointing behavior from other fields.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey (unmotivated, but resisting people telling other people being told the terms under which they may/not continue a discussion)
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re: Disappointed
I don't send low-priced stamps via USPS to international customers. Were I to do so, I would consider flaunting the law and might pop them in an envelope and send them via a cheaper method. Sometimes laws are stupid, sometimes they're not. Each person must decided for themselves. Is it akin to stealing? Maybe. But maybe its just stupid. There are far worse things going on in this world than a few folks saving a few pennies in this super-lucrative high-growth industry of selling nearly worthless stamps.
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re: Disappointed
I agree that laws do not trump ethics. After all, it is obvious that some laws in Nazi Germany were not ethical.
But I think that we have to be careful about how we use this justification. I do not think it can be used for a selfish justification but rather as a justification for fighting and changing the law (perhaps even to the extent of civil disobedience).
For example, say I think that the local speed limit law is wrong/bad. This means I should proactively work to change it, write letters to the editor of my local newspaper, or organization demonstrations to rally support for changing it. But waiting until I get a speeding ticket and then suddenly start complaining that the local speed limit law is wrong/bad would indicate that I had selfish motives in using that justification.
Don
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
02 Aug 2018
09:55:03pm
re: Disappointed
"... Ethics do not equal religion.
But religion contains ethics.
An atheist can certainly have ethics. ..."
These few and short sentences could fill
all the threads and topics (bandwith)
on this site as well as others, in fact,
judging the books I have read, they already have.
But I want to add one comment or thought.
Ethics do not equal religion, so true.
And while Religious thought may contain ethics,
Religion does necessarily not equal ethics either.
As for Atheism, people often, perhaps usually,
become non-believers, because they no longer
feel it is ethical to pretend to be religious
when their "sincere beliefs" are otherwise.
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re: Disappointed
The bigger question is when do these lapses change how your behavior in any type of relationship with the person?
1. Seller of improperly described material
2. Makes statements that are often false (philatelic or otherwise)
3. Committed non-philatelic crimes (charged or not)
4. Abusive behavior (these are usually the bullies in person or online)
5. Chronic hypocrites
Some may judge associating with these types is condoning their behavior.
In my case,
1. I do business with some "bad" sellers but avoid others as long as I know what I am getting.
2. This is my hot button but some may think this is like above.
3. I would avoid interaction with them
4. This is variable depending on situation
5. I avoid these as well.
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re: Disappointed
Integrity and character is what we do when no one is looking or when we are willing to do the right thing at personal cost.
I find it very easy to skip over listing of seller's who I feel are damaging the hobby when the listing is not something that I really need or want. But the real test of my integrity and character what I do when the same unethical seller has something that I really need or want.
In years past I would sometimes put my self-interests ahead of doing the right thing. But having to deal with a terminal illness has helped me become a better person in recent years. Feeling like I am living on ‘bonus time’ made me understand that I only have a finite amount of time to do the right thing in life. It is now easier for me to make these kinds of gray area ethical decisions.
Don
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Disappointed
Jings!...Crivvens!...Help Ma Boab!
What touchy folkies!!
It never fails to amaze me how intolerant people can be and how they get riled by some one else's point of view over such meaningless and trivial statements.
Was your life threatened?
Did you suffer severe injury?
Was any of your family/relatives threatened by the comments.
NAY! NAY! and thrice NAY!
There are bigger problems in the world that need addressing.
The fact is the universe does not revolve around YOU, there are several billions of US.
If you are upset over this then may I quote "Who Cares".
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Chris,Vince & Don,
I'm assuming you all are for open, intelligent discussion based upon facts rather than hype. If so, we are all in agreement. If you are pointing out that perhaps this particular board isn't the appropriate place for that, indeed you may be correct and I have erred in posting my comments here. Allow me to offer an apology to those who view the board strictly as a channel to be kept focused just on the philatelic material. I do encourage both explorations, philatelic and other, and can rightfully be chastised for perhaps offending. Truly I didn't mean for any offense and I can respect that point of view.
All that being said, we ought not to allow our intellect to be dulled by exposure to hype, and always insist upon facts.
Best,
Dan C.
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Moderator hat on:
No political discussion.
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"Why hasn't that drivel been deleted?"
To remind you of what happens whenever such discussions get started that they always wind up like this.
To remind you why we have a rule about non-philatelic discussions.
To remind you that when we do delete such a post, we get blasted for being Nazis, selective censorship, violating free speech, etc., and we get threatened (often in private messages) for having done so by some wonderful stamp collectors.
To remind you that the moderators have a thankless job, who despite their efforts to keep a friendly atmosphere and stay out of most frays, that some have to try to take advantage of the situation and put the moderators into the uncomfortable situation of having to take action whereby the moderators are attacked for having done so.
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And now for something really disappointing from a philatelic sense!
I have managed to tear in half the only mint stamp I had for Cochin China which I was attempting to remove from my Minkus Supreme Global album to move it to my Smithsonian Stamp for Every Country album. Worse, about two hours later I managed to do the same thing for a Tahiti stamp which was severely stuck down.
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See what I mean? Some just can't resist opening their mouths with political speak even when it is laid out to them to let it die off.
ON STAMPORAMA TALK ABOUT STAMPS OR OTHER HOBBIES. THIS IS A HOBBY SITE, NOT A NEWS COMMENTARY SITE. IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT POLITICS GO TO A WEB SITE DESIGNED FOR THAT PURPOSE! MOST COLLECTORS HERE DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS, AND WE DO NOT WANT THOSE COLLECTORS TO LEAVE THIS SITE BECAUSE OF THIS. IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE RULES ABOUT NO POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS, NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO STAY HERE, AND YOU WON'T BE MISSED.
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"Well folks, the thread title is appropriate at last !"
It was appropriate the very moment the key for the 'd' was clicked !!
Poor thread title
Poor responses to an unknown subject
Poor explanations
Too many discussions for one single thread and (poor) title.
Mods should do the right thing and get rid of it. It's not that difficult.
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Aye Politics Politics Politics.
It beggars belief that people get so hot and bothered over groups of non-entities.
The way I look at it is that if the politicians are fighting among themselves they are leaving US alone.
WE can get on with our lives, puting food on the table, enjoying our hobbies and appreciating the wonders of nature. (I was watching a red squirrel this morning).
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I find stamps to be a safe haven from contemporary events.
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This has been, mostly, an incredibly fascinating and informative topic, getting to incredible philosophical issues expressed, mostly, in a polite and curious fashion. Thank you all who participated in that part for your wonderful thoughts and commentary.
And I just spent 10 minutes of my morning cleaning up the political froth. Do you even pretend to read the rules or care? You know better, I know you do, because I've talked privately to almost all of you about this very thing.
I've tried to be judicious in deleting stuff. If I deleted something that wasn't political and didn't quote something from an earlier political post, please excuse me. There were some things I would have preferred to keep, but they were comingled with stuff that wasn't fair to keep.
Feel free to continue discussing the original, non-political thread's topic.
in conclusion, I refer you all to one of Phil's more recent posts on this thread.
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09:28:41am
re: Disappointed
I do not mind my post being deleted along with the others and I have restrained myself numerous times from posting a retort of sorts when folks display, how does one characterize this?
But, when the door is opened and the politics comes in, I find it extremely hard to refrain from representing an opposite point of view rather than let the other opposite point of view exist unchallenged for a time before or if it is finally removed.
Perhaps, this is why we do not encourage current political discussion. It's simple, really simple and I suppose that makes it difficult for some.
Bruce
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Thank you David for the clarifications and directions to be followed. You. along with many others quoted are focusing upon the light rather than the heat. The light is our hobby, respect for one another, and the willingness to share. The heat is the froth you wisely eliminated. To the extent that I personally added to the heat rather than the light, I am responsible and beg forgiveness. On the heat end though, since I do feel strongly as do some others, may I invite that part of the discussion to be continued by personal email to me and we'll put together a group exploration of the political end. Or not!
Best,
Dan C.
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I believe there is no excuse for political discussion on a hobby board. a lot of us spend time on here and other discussion boards in an effort to escape from the madness we see daily on the news and in our lives.
I stopped attending one local club over this issue. Others have, as well. I hate to see it creeping in here. And now I'm moving on.
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I am opposed to opening up this forum to political debate again. I lost a good friend over this. She simply couldn't handle it. No one's mind ever got changed. Let's talk about fun stuff, neat stuff, our hobbies and our families. If you hate President Trump, get involved in your local political scene.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
06 Aug 2018
06:03:49pm
re: Disappointed
" ... The light is our hobby,
respect for one another,
and the willingness to share. ..."
certainly a wise aphorism.
I must have missed something and am glad I did.
I think we were discussing some of the ethical problems
stampers encounter in the day to day effort
to handle our stamps and several fine points were raised
for others to consider as they ply the highways and byways
of the worlds, probably. most interesting hobby.
One added thing is that postage stamp and cover collections
in their several forms are affected by current events
or by often rather intriguing events of the past.
Occasionally the connection is obvious, at other times
only obvious to some dedicated members.
So every sentence should not be required to meet
the exacting standards of some of our more, shall I say,
delicately intense, members.
I thought I had enjoyed this discussion so I suppose
I missed something, I should excuse my self and reread it
see if I can find the reason I should be offended.
I wonder if I should have called the lead-in comment
as an "epigram," in place of an "aphorism.
But I'll not mention it here as it would be better
to find a forum dedicated to the collision
between word forms.
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Ya know, I had a sucky day. I hate Verizon, I hate Walmart, especially their pharmacy. Both of them played a part in my day sucking!
Soooooo.... I finally got home about 15 minutes ago. I cracked open a fine Pennsylvania Lager and settled in to be entertained and enlightened by the magical world of stamps, that will make all my troubles go away.
Now everyone go back to your albums, your hoard and even that pile of covers on the floor.... scan something, and post something purely philatelic and entertaining. I really need it!
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Yo Tom...you don't drink Yuengling do you?
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Yes Ernie! The last American owned brewer! And the next time we get together I’d be pleased to hoist one with you!
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Sounds good Tom...I still can't believe Budweiser is a foreign owned company. I saw the commercial for Yuengling's new pilsner. I gotta pick up a 6 pack!
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A fine Pennsylvania lager? Not possible! Canadian lager, now that's lager! OK, I'll admit it, I've never had a lager made in PA.
I've been enjoying Canadian brew ever since being introduced to it by a colleague at Canadian Press shortly after moving to Ottawa from Missouri in 1969. I'd never had anything that good in the U.S. Several micro-breweries in Vancouver are now producing really good lagers. Canadian wine has improved to a remarkable degree. When my wife and I moved to Vancouver in 1971, British Columbia beer tasted like it was made from bars of ivory soap. No more. Great stuff!
A curious thing: During my time in South Vietnam, during the Vietnam War, I had two drinks — perhaps an ounce or two of Japanese whisky (about a dozen Marines and corpsmen were sharing a single bottle), and a can of Canadian beer — Carling Black Label — which our battalion surgeon brought back with him after trip out to the ship that disembarked us, the U.S.S. Paul Revere. Why not American beer? I have no idea. But it was wet, cold, and welcome! Some pertinent social history about the war: My battalion was "inserted" into Vietnam early in the war, in January, 1966. The only "drugs" that I saw in use were the Japanese whiskey and Black Label beer that I mentioned. No marijuana, no cocaine, no heroin. Of course, if I'd had a joint or some heroin, I might not have PTSD! That would be nice....
Bob
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PTSD, ? post traumatic stamp disorder?
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That's it! Post Traumatic Stamp Disorder, best treated with Canadian lager and wine!
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The last time I looked (a few days ago) there were hundreds of independent American beer breweries. Some of these are quite good actually.
But I am really very disappointed to see this thread being hijacked and turned into some alcoholic chit chat. I really hope the moderators put an end to this and everybody sticks to their stamps (hmmm... that sounds funny). Perhaps start a topic about beer and wine on stamps or combined with stamping?
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08:43:27am
re: Disappointed
Yes, Jan, we need a "Stamporama Beer Hall" to go with the "Stamporama Diner"!
-Paul
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I agree with Jansimon. It's disgraceful that stamp collectors, who only drink when alcohol is available for free, saving their money for stamps, should promote the idea of drink! That's like a wine company promoting stamp collecting. Oh, wait, I think that's already happening! And it's really good wine, aged in kangaroo pouches and then transported on ships returning to England after transporting prisoners to Australia.
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funny, Bob, I thought only beers were hoppy.
i might just fancy a wee snort of the twoo rwoo cab
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I do not recommend bidding on ebay while under the influence. You may be disappointed.
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Bob, i couldn't help thinking of a certain Monty Python sketch about Australian wines: this is a bottle with a message in, and the message is BEWARE!. This is not a wine for drinking -- this is a wine for laying down and avoiding.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
09 Aug 2018
02:26:15am
re: Disappointed
The favored Japanese whiskey was "Suntory",
decent tasting, and both very alcoholic and
inexpensive. I think I still have a receipt
showing ¥750 per liter when it was 300¥ to
a US dollar (Script). Better for about two
greenbacks. But the hangover for excessive
consumption was a sharp frontal lobe pain
I do not remember how many Ding-Dongs
it was in Saigon.
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"But I am really very disappointed to see this thread being hijacked and turned into some alcoholic chit chat. I really hope the moderators put an end to this and everybody sticks to their stamps (hmmm... that sounds funny). Perhaps start a topic about beer and wine on stamps or combined with stamping?"
Okay, here's my Franklin cover most closely associated with beer!
Note that this thread wasn't about stamps to begin with. And everyone is having fun. I was at my model car club meeting yesterday. Small summer meeting, 10 people in attendance. Sometimes those are the best meetings. We all sat around one long table and had the opportunity to just talk, while we ate our pizza (we have food at every meeting).
I noticed that the conversation went off topic and wandered with personal topics, like vacations, the current state of Wildwood (beach area), and somehow landed on the topic of the NY Worlds Fair. One guy said he always regretted not going.. I innocently asked if he meant 1964 or 1939? Then the topic became why there hasn't been a Worlds Fair in a while... so we asked Siri, we pulled up the list of every Worlds Fair ever, and saw that there is still a Worlds Fair, just that there hasn't been one in the USA in over a dozen years.
Since I had my phone out, I pulled up the images of the Worlds Fair items I had recently purchased on eBay. Enjoyed by all. Then to pull the conversation on topic I showed them the Greyhound flyer from the 1964 fair, that had the futuristic "Escorter" which were 4 person golf cart type vehicles that worked liked taxis at the fair. These eventually wound up on the Atlantic City boardwalk and one pops up in NJ every so often. I know of one that was restored, and I've been trying to get the owner to allow me to photograph and measure it off to scratch build a model. So we do eventually wander back on topic.
I'd invite you to come with me, but I only have one ticket!
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
21 Aug 2018
11:53:54pm
re: Disappointed
" ....Since I had my phone out, I pulled up the images
of the Worlds Fair items I had recently purchased ...."
My mother frequently told of visiting the 1939 World's Fair
and she and my dad bought many of the crass souvenirs being
sold there. However, she also detected the first and second
of the series of contractions that led to a quick drive
to Good Samaritan Hospital in Brooklyn where she had a C-section
due to the apparent breech birth position of her nine pound,
six ounce, living souvenir.
I have been doing things bass-ackwards ever since.
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01:25:15pm
re: Disappointed
Lager ?
Girly beer!!
( - also drunk by Estate Agents ( Realtors), Bookmakers,Professional Soccer Players and their WAGS ( Wives and girlfriends ), High Court Judges, Lawyers,Ruperts (army officers), Antique Dealers, Used Car Salesmen, Politicians ( of all parties and persuasions ),Stock Exchange, insurance & Financial Services Staff, inhabitants living south and east of the Wash/Severn Estuary Axis and other undesirable members of society ! LOL)
REAL MEN drink ALE known in England as Bitter and Scotland as Heavy. Preferably northern beer - not the watery stuff brewed in the south for southern jessies.
Just in case anyone gets upset I am just exercising the prejudices of my Northern working-class roots in a light hearted manner ( some of my best friends are Southern jessies !- and I am even acquainted with other categories mentioned above).
I wouldn't normally have included the last paragraph, and leave it for you to realise the tongue in cheek nature of my comments, but as a result of reactions elsewhere took the cowards way out and played safe.
Malcolm
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"It was to keep the weak English ale out of Scotland!!!!"
Long live the old uisce beatha.
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