I love history (part of the appeal of old stamps), and I find that part of the value in studying history is to better understand how people viewed the world at that particular time. If it "made history", it was because at the time, it was considered important or noteworthy. Same with the mural Phil describes. Regardless of the alleged circumstances of the woman in the artwork, at the time, someone felt it was an appropriate homage to the hard work that resulted in your little slice of the Hudson Valley.
They say that history is written by the winners, so yes, the historical facts may be tainted to some degree. We may not agree with or support the events of the past, but it's what happened. To obliterate references to those parts of history because it is inconvenient or doesn't mesh with the current social and political climate is tantamount to propaganda. Various regimes have used similar methods to "re-write" or "erase" history over the years, and often for less than altruistic purposes.
TomD
I am confused with the current atmosphere. This started as a protest against the use of force by police which was of course ignited by the horrific murder of George Floyd. I do not think that anyone (other than perhaps the bad cops defense lawyer) would try to justify this murder caught on video. But once again the media and those with agendas have weaponized this current event and now it has morphed into a protest against racism. My opinion is that the use of lethal force by police in the US has been declining over the years. This is based upon data kept and published by The Washington post (a left leaning newspaper) since 2015. Everyone can download this spreadsheet and look at the data themselves
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/
Unlike the media’s fanning the flames of hatred and division, the data reveals that the use of lethal force dropped to the lowest levels last year. Last year there were 10 unarmed, non-white people and 19 unarmed white people killed by police. Any deaths are, of course, tragic but why would anyone be surprised with these numbers considering that there were over 50+ million police encounters last year?
We have emptied the mental health facilities into the streets, we have almost 65% of black families raising kids without any fathers in the household, we have large numbers of folks who are in the grips of drug abuse. We are asking the police to play the role of fathers for kids and be drug/mental health counselors on top of their already dangerous job. But the data shows that the number of lethal encounters is an infinitesimally small percentage of all encounters. Yet the moronic media has worked hard to influence many people into thinking that there is an epidemic of lethal police encounters. If the current use of force laws are not consider appropriate then change the state laws, I do not see how knocking over statues or painting over a mural will change the use of force for law enforcement officers.
I do agree that there are real racial issues in the world including the USA. A good example is the obvious racial inequities in our educational system. And these educational system inequities seem to me to be on display recently when protesters vandalized the 54th Massachusetts Regiment Memorial in Boston. I do not understand the point of defacing memorial to the first black volunteer infantry unit in the Civil War as a part of a racial demonstration in 2020. Was this a case of historical ignorance or am I missing the point? Will they be coming for our Confederate stamps and covers next? Having the quality of your kids’ education dictated by your zip code is ludicrous and demands a better solution. But instead of driving a destruction, hatred and division agenda why not work towards improving education choices for parents?
We have stood by and allowed the media, politicians, and certain groups to weaponize yet another current event. Many of the protesters are being brought in from other parts of the country just to cause trouble. The protests are not a grassroots, organic events but rather highly organized with people who have destructive agendas. These are the seeds we have sown by allowing ourselves to be influenced by media and politicians. When did it become acceptable to be destructive as opposed to being constructive? When did it become acceptable to use identity politics to divide us all?
As I said in the COVID thread it does not matter what the current event is; racism, viruses, climate change, sexual abuse. Those with agendas have hijacked these important issues and are using fear, hatred and division to control the narrative and news cycles. It is up to people with common sense and those capable of independent thinking to stop this madness. We need to stop supporting media outlets, let advertisers know that you are not supporting them, and tell your politicians your opinion(s). Or we can just be lemmings and allow ourselves to be feed highly spun information by those with agendas.
Don
It is the hypocrisy nowadays.
Lewis Hamilton the Formula One racing driver and World Champion, paid £40 million by Mercedes, has been supporting BLM quite voluably yet Mercedes had used around 6,000 forced labour "slaves" during the 1940's.
A classic example of do as I say rather than what I do.
One other thing that is never mentioned is that not all slavers were white.
My philosophy is treat other people the way you would like to be treated yourself.
Perhaps The Plowing Woman was a widow, whose husband died suppressing armed treason ...
Yes, That Armed Treason.
Mercedes is making reparations ... that is supposed to be a good thing.
Meanwhile, here is Melinda's Really Stupid Idea:
"“One of the reasons we are so involved in this is that you don’t want the first vaccines to go to the highest bidding countries,” Melinda Gates explained. “There are 60 million healthcare workers [around the world]. They deserve to get the vaccine first. And then you have to start to tier from there, based on the countries and the populations. Here in the U.S., it’s going to be Black people who really should get it first and many indigenous people, as well as people with underlying symptoms, and then elderly people.”"
"Mercedes is making reparations ... that is supposed to be a good thing."
And let's not forget Hugo Boss, and all those snappy SS uniforms.
My area is going through problems now. Halifax was founded by a very nasty person by the name of Cornwallis, so his statue was removed. Our first Canadian Prime Minister was involved with setting up residential schools for the Native population so there is talk about removing anything pertaining to him. Next is Churchill who is considered to be a racist. He probably was since most of his generation had racist leanings. There are many others, many other place names, etc. far too numerous to mention. I am not a racist and also am 62.5% native, but this seems to be going a bit far. We cannot, and should not, judge people from previous generations by our standards today - that is wrong and unfair.
To say the Black Lives Matter campaign is being whipped up by the media is nonsense. It is an organic movement which sprung up immediately after the murder of George Floyd. It was instantly followed by protests in many other cities across the globe. People of every creed and colour are ashamed of the way people of colour are being treated, both in the present day and over the centuries.
While watching the crowds pulling over a slavers statue in Bristol, I was impressed that most of those involved were white people. There are so many protests taking place each day and so much alleged disorder, I cannot envisage there being so many militant activists to attend all these events.
While I am firmly on the side of the BLM protestors, I do think debate about whether symbols of past oppression should be removed, or amended is preferable to being torn down and then shown across the world on our different media portals.
" It is an organic movement which sprung up immediately after the murder of George Floyd."
"In the summer of 2013, after George Zimmerman's acquittal for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, the movement began with the hashtag #BlackLivesMatter. The movement was co-founded by three black community organizers: Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, and Opal Tometi."
You hated to contradict me, but you did anyway, lol.
I am aware of that. I was simply saying the recent protests were organic. Immediately after we saw the horrific treatment of George Floyd on news programmes, protests sprung up across the world. These protests were not the result of media manipulation or bias. People simply responded to an obvious injustice.
Harvey:-
Have you read the Wikipedia pages on Edward Cornwallis? It is quite interesting. I had never heard of him.
I had heard of Charles Cornwallis and his escapades in the United States but not Edward.
Philib,
Don't you live in upstate NY? If it was supposed to be a depiction of area history how would anyone with a smidgen of sense possibly think the woman depicted was a slave?
Ian:- I've skimmed his history a few times and remember he wasn't very well liked in Scotland, and maybe Ireland as well. But, if I remember right, he was incredibly good at following orders - when they told him to kill and plunder he did it very well. When he came to Nova Scotia he didn't treat the native population very well. But, at that time, England, France and Spain did not treat the native populations in the areas they "visited" very well. The killed many of the "inferior races" that they happened to meet.
It was almost like it was their "job"! Do we hold them responsible for what they did, probably we should! But, that's what was done back then - look at what the Spanish did in South and Central America about 200 years before. They probably all saw themselves as conquerors, not explorers or settlers!
Harvey:-
Unfortunately many peoples were collateral damage in the wars between the European countries. The French, the British, the Spanish, the Dutch and the Portuguese exported their wars all over the world as well as forcing their religions on the indigenous races.
Man's inhumanity to Man.
"To say the Black Lives Matter campaign is being whipped up by the media is nonsense."
"Don't you live in upstate NY? If it was supposed to be a depiction of area history how would anyone with a smidgen of sense possibly think the woman depicted was a slave?"
Partsguy, the artist was on our local tv channel today...he was amazed that someone thought the woman was a slave..he intended her to be a Dutch woman. I am very interested in finding out what was behind the speedy painting over !
51Studebaker says the American media is promoting a racial agenda by reporting for 3 or 4 days that the FBI sent over 15 agents to investigate an alleged hate crime, which in the end turned out to be a false alarm.
Either the FBI is incredibly stupid to send so many people on a fool's errand, or the media was reporting on the fact such an investigation was underway and on the process of the investigation. For the FBI to send a task force such as this, it will be national news and prolonged messaging would be on every station.
Like 51Studebaker I won't presume to comment on something I know nothing about. However, I know something of the American media, as I've visited 33 of the 50 US States over around 50 visits to your wonderful country. I am aware of the condition of your news and issues of biased reporting. By his own admissions, this event was all over the news and on every screen for 3 or 4 days. That, to my questioning brain, sounds as though reporters were sent to investigate this story. Either the reporters, or the investigators, or both were slow to do their jobs.
"...media was reporting on the fact such an investigation was underway and on the process of the investigation..."
"This cannot be defended as objective reporting and this was just one of hundred of news stories that were just like this."
The news used to "report" the news. Walter Cronkite, Edward R. Murrow, The Huntley-Brinkley Report, Douglas Edwards, and so many others.
Even CNN in it's early days - who can forget Peter, Bernie and John reporting live from the hotel room in Baghdad?
And now we have ........................?
We have officially crossed the point of no return..... We have crossed the Rubicon.... there will be no turning back.....
There was always a line... no matter what your political stripe, Dem or Republican, or anything in between, that the use of violence was an unacceptable way of accomplishing political goals in the US. That's what other countries did; we were always better than that. Now don't misunderstand me, I know that we have had our fair share of riots in the past but there is something fundamentally different going on here.
Now, we have national politicians and the media endorsing and indeed encouraging the violence. This is new.
Oh, well. Nothing lasts forever. Goodbye America. Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war.
Phil, was the mural altered, or completely covered over?
In an earlier comment I said I wouldn't comment on something I knew nothing about. I then watched the news video kindly provided by 51Studebaker. My reaction to the is that the report spent little time on the incident and more time showing the Confederate flag. They showed the flag on cars, on tee shirts, on posters and on a plane. No comment during the report stated the FBI had become involved. Other than that, I thought the item reached the standards of reporting which is now accepted by television viewers.
To educate myself, I googled "Bubba Watson Noose". I found many reports stating a noose WAS found in the garage. The FBI report stated the offensive item had been in situ since November of last year, and the garage had been randomly allocated to Watson only last week. Does that make it less offensive? Was the item "Fake News"? Was 51Studebaker accurate in his description? To those 3 questions my answer is no.
Brechinite explains quality of reporting is not now what it used to be. I wholeheartedly agree. I've stopped buying newspapers. A few years ago I bought 3 newspapers every day, 2 broadsheets and a tabloid. I realised each news item was almost always identical. Newspapers cut and pasted reports (normally issued by PR departments) and then sold them as news. On rare occasions when there appeared to be differences, examination showed minuscule variations between different reports. Adjectives would be changed, but the basics were always the same. Sadly, this also applies to sports coverage. If these reports were university tests, all would be seen by examiners as plagiarism.
Where television formerly recruited the brightest journalistic stars, sadly now any person who has a mobile phone can, and does, call themselves a reporter. Like published print, standards have fallen to, what I often think is, unacceptable levels. TV reporters are now employed based on their gender, sex, or cultural ethnicity, not on ability.
Here in Scotland, I have the luxury of living in a multi racial and multi cultural country. Fortunately racism is on the wane. We don't have a colonial past. Sadly we do have remnants of the legacy of slavery in the form of statues to people who got rich from the backs of slaves. Black Lives Matter made me question the legitimacy of honouring these long dead people. That doesn't mean I will be lining up to topple statues, or pull off street signs, but I am in favour of debate as to whether they should remain in place.
"…To educate myself, I googled "Bubba Watson Noose"…"
There are always three sides to a story:-
My view......Your view.....and the Truth!
51Studebaker certainly has his knickers in a twist. I don't wish to get into an argument about this. I said I googled "Bubba Watson Noose". I omitted to say I followed links to 3 British National newspaper reports of the alleged incident (which as stated in an earlier post) all turned out the same. I hardly think that is being educated by Google. If Google gives a left wing bias, so what? Your colours are showing Don, whether they be Confederate or Old Glory. All 3 newspapers (Times, Telegraph, and Guardian) reported the FBI stated there was a noose which was in place for around 6 months. Are the FBI wrong?
My intervention in this debate was to attempt to balance the discussion. For centuries people of colour have been enslaved and discriminated against. George Floyd is only the latest in a long line of coloured people murdered by police. Thankfully (sic) his murder was caught on camera. God bless mobile phones and untrained journalists. Or should we say his alleged murder? Both my wife and I were outraged at the death of George Floyd. While we have not physically protested, we both agree that attitudes must change. It may be against the law in America to practice discrimination against coloured people, but how can you enforce the law if police are the worst offenders?
People can quote statistics about the number of deaths of black people in police custody, saying they are almost the same as those of white people, but tonight I watched a parent of a 16 year old black American boy tell of having "the talk" with his son about the need to act in the most compliant way possible and never to look them in the eye if stopped by police, giving no opportunity to police for arrest, assault, or worse. Do parents of white teenagers have the same discussion? As a white visitor many times to the USA I have never been in fear of your police, but would I feel the same if I were black?
Bubba Wallace accepts this was not racist. NASCAR accept it was not racist. American and British press accept it was not racist. Seems to me the discussion now revolves around whether the Southern Cross should be permitted by NASCAR. I have an opinion on that but this is Stamporama, not American Hot Rods. I also have opinions on the language Don uses to justify his argument. I leave it to others to form their own opinion.
Like Don, I grew up in the 60's, but it seems the similarity ends there. I never smoked dope, and I went to work in a coal mine shortly after my 16th birthday. I was left wing in my twenties, but we had Thatcher then and everyone was. I owned a business for 30 years, employed people, and worked hard to keep a roof over my family and my employees families too, so my politics mellowed. I always believed there are 2 sides to a story and to check facts before rushing to judgement. Don, it seems to me, you think anyone who disagrees with you is left wing. I may be Pinko Liberal, but I'm not left wing now.
I am aware of the state of the media in America. Reporting on this issue will not result in anyone winning a Pulitzer prize. However, I have learned never, ever, to believe anything I see on Fox news, as a result of having watched 2 programmes about their history. Media, whether it is TV, newspapers, online, or elsewhere always display the agenda of those who own them. In the U.K. our media has many problems, but we are still able to achieve balance and fairness. Surely that can be achieved in America too?
" but we are still able to achieve balance and fairness."
Gudgie,
I do not want to get in any discussion right or wrong on the ongoing subject, but you asked,
""Do parents of white teenagers have the same discussion?""
"I hardly think that is being educated by Google."
"Your colours are showing Don, whether they be Confederate or Old Glory."
"People can quote statistics about the number of deaths of black people in police custody, saying they are almost the same as those of white people, "
"Or should we say his alleged murder?"
"tonight I watched a parent of a 16 year old black American boy tell of having "the talk" with his son about the need to act in the most compliant way possible and never to look them in the eye if stopped by police, giving no opportunity to police for arrest, assault, or worse. Do parents of white teenagers have the same discussion? "
"Don, it seems to me, you think anyone who disagrees with you is left wing. I may be Pinko Liberal, but I'm not left wing now. "
I obviously touched a nerve with 51Studebaker. Don if I upset you I apologise. I was participating in a discussion about a subject of great interest to both of us. While my apology is genuine, after reviewing all my contributions, I am unable to locate any inflammatory statements. Is “Your colours are showing Don, whether they be Confederate or Old Glory” inflammatory?
Is “I also have opinions on the language Don uses to justify his argument. I leave it to others to form their own opinion” inflammatory? While “Don, it seems to me, you think anyone who disagrees with you is left wing” may be questionable, it’s no more questionable than “Could it be that being educated via Google, which is renowned it’s left leaning search results, might not be a good place to get all sides of a story? “
I did ask some questions of Don though. I’m not sure any were answered. I’ll repeat them. “I found many reports stating a noose WAS found in the garage. The FBI report stated the offensive item had been in situ since November of last year, and the garage had been randomly allocated to Watson only last week. Does that make it less offensive? Was the item "Fake News"? Was 51Studebaker accurate in his description?
Below is the statement from the FBI about the noose found in the pits at Talladega
Joint Statement from U.S. Attorney Jay E. Town and FBI Special Agent in Charge Johnnie Sharp, Jr. Regarding the Noose Found in NASCAR’s Bubba Wallace’s Garage at Talladega Superspeedway
"The FBI learned that garage number 4, where the noose was found, was assigned to Bubba Wallace last week. The investigation also revealed evidence, including authentic video confirmed by NASCAR, that the noose found in garage number 4 was in that garage as early as October 2019. Although the noose is now known to have been in garage number 4 in 2019, nobody could have known Mr. Wallace would be assigned to garage number 4 last week".
I said “the FBI stated there was a noose which was in place for around 6 months. Are the FBI wrong?” The above direct quotation uses the word “noose” 4 times. Nowhere in the complete, statement does it say the rope was a garage door pull tied in a ring, yet Don frequently calls it a rope.
I asked “how can you enforce the law if police are the worst offenders?” No answer.
Don, you wrote “Yesterday the FBI Director said that the FBI has opened an investigation into foreign influence and interference in the US protests. The Director said that the protests are not being driven by a single ideology movement or group but rather by those with other agendas. Of course this news is not getting much coverage in the mainstream, folks can form their own opinions as to why it is not.” Tonight I searched the FBI website. (https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel) I looked at FBI Press Releases for the last 2 months and could find no record of any such statement by the FBI Director. As you said Don “Folks can form their own opinions”.
I mistakenly omitted the word “alleged in one sentence, but quickly added it 1 line later. You lectured me “The presumption of innocence is the legal principle and this is considered an international human right by the UN and most countries.” Perhaps you forgot that it was you, who on 20/6/2020, on this forum wrote “This started as a protest against the use of force by police which was of course ignited by the horrific murder of George Floyd. I don ot think that anyone (other than perhaps the bad cops defense lawyer) would try to justify this murder caught on video”. You attempted to educate me on journalism basics, but somewhere in that book the word consistency must be mentioned..
To Brechinite, I say I never listen to Radio Scotland, but I do get a balanced view of news.
Don, I repeat my apology from the start of this contribution. If I offended I am sorry. I joined this forum because I was outraged at the killing, while unarmed and in police custody, of George Floyd. Like you I stated my opinions. I attempted to keep my contributions lighthearted, but obviously you disagree.
Anglophile attacks me, then says personal attacks are totally unacceptable. That seems lost on me. Please tell me is it okay to criticise me for using Google?
I made a sincere apology earlier. I attempted to refocus this discussion on the reasons I joined in. I questioned the accuracy of some statements previously made, and I nailed my anti racist colours to the mast.
Anglophile, rather than make a contribution to the discussion then does what he says is wrong, by making a personal attack on me. He then closed in a rude manner "Got it? Good. Carry on." I left school more than 50 years ago, and have not been spoken to in that manner since some time before I left school.
Where we agree is when he said " A person is NOT evil if their ideas are different.". I think it was Voltaire who said "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend until death your right to say it".
In every contribution I made to this discussion I have at all times addressed the ideas, and will continue to do so. Feel free to contribute your opinions on this important subject Anglophile.
" "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend until death your right to say it"."
What?!? There's a flame session going on and I missed it??? Yall need to get a hobby. Oh, wait. You all do have a hobby.
Gudgie,
When you disagree with someone you can simply say, ‘I disagree with Joe because of X, Y, and Z’. You do not have to call another person’s opinion ‘nonsense’ as you did in your very first post. But let’s move on.
All,
I apologize for the length of this post in advance but this is an important topic.
The majority of my comments have been about the media and those who are weaponizing important issues for their own money/power agendas. I stated in the beginning that I think that racism does indeed exist in all societies but when the issue gets hijacked by the media and politicians it undermines the effort to make real improvements. The media and politicians seize the moment to give lip service that serves only themselves. I gave an example of the inequities in the US educational system and mention how this was revealed in the vandalized the 54th Massachusetts Regiment Memorial in Boston. The US main stream media largely ignored this obvious hypocrisy and now history is doomed to repeat itself. The real issue is racial the inequities in the US educational system but this is ignored in favor of covering protests and some politicians are encouraging more protests.
Now there are protesters who have made plans to topple the Lincoln Emancipation Memorial statue, if the authorities had not stepped in they certainly would have already tried to topple and/or vandalized it. This is a memorial which was purchased and erected by freed slaves to honor Lincoln and his leadership in emancipation, this is a memorial which was dedicated by Fredrick Douglas. This memorial used to see an endless stream of teachers bringing their classrooms to teach them about US history and importance of emancipation; but this is not happening now due to the protesters intimidating people who approach it. And if they have their way this will no longer happen at all. I am at a complete loss to understand how this helps anything. Is the protest helping address the racial inequities in the US educational system? Is it helping minorities get better jobs? I see virtual no airtime given to addressing the real issues.
Allow me to give another example of how the media and those with agendas totally miss the real opportunity and instead pander and weaponize an important issue like racism. Facebook is embraced as a ‘woke’ company because they police the content of their venue for opinions that do not match what they think is a ‘woke’ perspective. Isn’t it great that many folks in our hobby support a ‘woke’ company like Facebook. Apparently Facebook’s lip service is enough to convince people that Facebook is a real leader in fighting racism. Does anyone care that Facebook’s workforce is comprised of only 4% African-Americans? Digging deeper, it turns out that only 1% of technology jobs are filled by African-Americans. Does this sound like a ‘woke’ company? Where is the hours and hours of media reporting calling out this hiring behavior? Why are not the protestors standing in front of Facebook buildings?
I also posted my opinion about the media bias and used the recent coverage of the ‘hate crime noose’ as an example. Many in the and out of the media are now zeroing in on the word ‘noose’ instead of the mistakes they made in their the rush to judgement and using a unverified story as evidence of systemic racism in America. But the insidious thing about the media is not simply their obvious biased reporting, it is a number of other ways they try to manipulate viewers. For example controlling what the lead story is, controlling how much time they spend on a story, controlling the crawls and other graphics around the screen or page, and most importantly controlling what they do NOT report on.
If something does not fit their narrative it is ignored and instead the time is filled with promoting their narrative only. How many hours and hours was invested on the ‘noose hate crime’ story? While this was happened, there have been real hate crimes occurring which have been ignored. Here is a simple example, the Francis Scott Key monument. Try and Googling ‘Francis Scott Key monument’ and see what returned. Can you find the real hate crime that the protesters committed when they spray painted ‘kill whiteys’ across the pedestal of the Francis Scott Key monument? Where were the hours and hours of news coverage on this hate crime? Where were the 15 FBI agents rushing in the next day to investigate this hate crime? Now Google the word ‘noose’ and see what gets returned.
I am not a lemming and resist being manipulated by the media and big tech companies. I know that I was born equal, I know that I treat others as I want to be treated, I know that I form my opinions about others based upon their character and not their skin color, nationality, religion, or sex. I have no ‘white guilt’ nor do I feel any need to virtual signal to others. I am willing to help fight injustice if it is in a nondestructive and productive way but I also will callout those who try to hijack important issues with hidden agendas and deceptive practices. I am not going to sit quietly and be intimated by anyone who calls me racist or privileged nor I am going to support politicians who latch onto whatever the current news cycle topics might be and pretend to ‘fix it’.
Currently we have many national politicians who want to demonstrate that they are relevant by pretending that Federal laws will address and ‘fix’ the use of force in law enforcement. How stupid do they think we are? There is no US national police force, police enforcement all occurs at the state and local level. Every state and local official have had decades to changes the use of force laws. Take NY city and NY state as an example. If the NYC police force is practicing systematic racism (which seems odd to me since the majority of NYPD is African-American) by using things like choke holds, then NY state and NYC officials could have changes the use of force laws themselves. All of the areas in the US which are considered problematic are controlled by local officials who change things if they wanted to. But instead they have left their communities rot, decay, and feaster but now want to make this a Federal issue? America is a Republic. I vote in and have the most influence in my community, I have much less ability to change things in Chicago or New York. In my opinion the best opportunity to make real changes, changes that help people and not just pandering and lip service, is at the local level.
America is not racist, there is no systematic racism in in US law enforcement or the judicial system. This is not 1950. There are some very real issues where an unbiased media could really help but they are completely missing the opportunity. Has anyone heard of Mekhi James? No, but everyone has heard of George Floyd. If Black Lives really Matter than why is not has not the media raised the name Mekhi James onto the tip of everyone’s tongue? In a single weekend there were more black lives lost in Chicago then the number of unarmed black people killed by police for an entire year. But there is no money or power in promoting the real information like this, there is no money or power in stories about Facebook only having 4% black employees. You get money and power by whipping up people who are either too ignorant or apathetic to look beyond their 30 second sound bites and instant online searches and in my opinion this is what is happening.
Don
Edit: I strongly disagree with the Mods removing Anglophile post. Not only has this broken the flow of the thread but his post was no more of a personal attack than others in this thread.
@Gudgie
"It is an organic movement..."
"Don, you wrote “Yesterday the FBI Director said that the FBI has opened an investigation into foreign influence and interference in the US protests. The Director said that the protests are not being driven by a single ideology movement or group but rather by those with other agendas. Of course this news is not getting much coverage in the mainstream, folks can form their own opinions as to why it is not.” Tonight I searched the FBI website. (https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel) I looked at FBI Press Releases for the last 2 months and could find no record of any such statement by the FBI Director. As you said Don “Folks can form their own opinions”."
"However, I have learned never, ever, to believe anything I see on Fox news, as a result of having watched 2 programmes about their history."
"I mistakenly omitted the word “alleged in one sentence, but quickly added it 1 line later. You lectured me “The presumption of innocence is the legal principle and this is considered an international human right by the UN and most countries.”"
" Of course we all can have our own opinions. But the media calling a rope with a loop to pull a garage door down a hate crime noose was a rush to judgment and dishonest by any standard. I am sure that next I’ll be called racist since I put a ‘noose’ around my neck this morning and went out in public. I thought I innocently put on a coat and tie; but this thing is a noose and by me wearing it around my neck I am clearly racist.
Journalism 101 teaches reporters to use the word ‘alleged’, it is literally taught the first day of Journalism class and then reiterated over and over. Another of the most basic journalism skills is to always question the leads you receive. The standard Journalism adage used to be ‘If your mother tells you she loves you, check it out’; cautioning reporters to use critical thinking and to always check their leads. Why are those who are trying to spin this ‘noose’ story ignoring the fact that no one even bothered to seek a image or send a reporter to the Talladega garage? What is not being reported on is that many in NASCAR knew immediately that this was not a noose or a hate crime but they did not feel comfortable in coming forward knowing that they would be called racist?"
"I strongly disagree with the Mods removing Anglophile post. Not only has this broken the flow of the thread"
Don,
Why do you bother? There are members here that don’t agree with you and will attack you for your opinion. I gave up posting. There were members from Australia, Great Britain and Canada who had way too much to say about America and how bad it is. When confronted with their obvious disdain for America my post were deleted. I have had a running conversation with members here and when they didn’t like my response the moderators removed parts of my posts. It would make me look foolish because the context of the conversation would be lost. The moderators like to remove post that I was responding to so my posts did not make sense. I have received hate messages and email from members on this board attacking me and my beliefs, when I brought this up to the moderators I was asked what did I do to make them send me these hateful messages. Really, what did I do! For the record they are members from other countries not America.
The moderators have the right to do as they see fit but just like the MSM they are interested in their own agenda. I wonder how long this post will last?
Vince
" But the insidious thing about the media is not simply their obvious biased reporting, it is a number of other ways they try to manipulate viewers. For example controlling what the lead story is, controlling how much time they spend on a story, controlling the crawls and other graphics around the screen or page, and most importantly controlling what they do NOT report on."
Hi Vince
I think that it is important at this time in history to stand up and be heard and as is often quoted, ‘those who stand for nothing fall for everything’.
I agree that this community has a bit too much nationalism at times and I try to avoid getting sucked into it, from my chair it appears to come from a handful of folks.
To be honest I try not to comment on other countries and cultures because while I have visited some I have not lived there. I also do not trust that I can glean a good cultural understanding via Wiki or Google, for me this leads to a weak and unsatisfactory kind of knowledge.
Censorship-wise I understand the Moderator dilemma, I have been a Moderator of various forums since 2000. I have no delusions about ‘free speech’ in these kinds of forums, they are privately owned and they can managed them in any way they see fit. We all agreed to these Terms and Conditions when we signed up so it is whatever it is. But that said, I appreciate consistent Moderation and in this thread I am not seeing that.
Don
"I have no delusions about ‘free speech’ in these kinds of forums, they are privately owned and they can managed them in any way they see fit. We all agreed to these Terms and Conditions when we signed u"
Don,
Thanks for your response. I agree with what you said ‘those who stand for nothing fall for everything’. I was taught in a different time as you were, 60’s & 70’s. I was always taught to question everything. I had a Catholic school education and by the time I hit high school I was even taught to question my own beliefs and other religions and cultures. It’s a large world out there and many different points of view.
I don't use Google or Facebook or Wiki for my information. How did that song go, "believe half of what you see and some or none of what you hear".
When you were accused of “Your colours are showing Don, whether they be Confederate or Old Glory” inflammatory? I know you are thick skinned but I even found that to be offensive especially coming from a person who don’t live in your country. It was just a shot at being an American and our flag, Old Glory or were you being accused of being a racist with the “Confederate” remark.
You are correct about “consistent Moderation”. I understand the moderator’s dilemma but I don’t see consistent moderation. It’s their board and are free to delete as they feel.
Vince
There's a lot here that really interests me,and being contributed by highly educated and intellingent folks, yet I'm loathe to jump for all the personal side trips we're taking.
It seems most of this is now refutations and counterrefutations of he said he saids. Personally, I have found those arguments best done behind the curtains, and there are people in this very thread with whom I have done just that, sometimes at my initiation and sometimes their's. We're damn near close to friends, even if our allegiances haven't moved a micron.
I'd urge us to return to the topics: initially the little Dutch immigrant/slash slave/slash Basque mother; and media malaise.
I'll start us off with the latter: i personally find a few media sources really useful, credible, accurate, and, when wrong, saying so. There's also an enormous number of outlets that are either lazy or so understaffed that well, there's no reason to read them, or they have surrendered journalistic ethics while retaining words like "news" in their description.
As to Google and facebook, Google is algorhythmic-based, and it, like those who monetize their own activity on it, follow the money. This is the first time i've heard Facebook called left-leaning. While they have silos in which it is unlikely a left guy will ever see a right guy, or vice versa, I don't think Mark and company are particularly political; they just want to be left alone to make more money, left, right, and truth be damned.
I try not to personally offend, but if I have, PM me and we'll keep it from being a world-wide conflagaration.
I very much like and agree with what you have written Don.
For Vince: As a Canadian, I am disgusted with the very strong anti-American bias in the Canadian news media. Just today, a feature story on CTV News will be aired: "What can we learn from the USA's mishandling of the pandemic?" I truly believe that this is a very transparent attack on the current US President, during an election cycle.
And, for every 5 minutes of time dedicated to local or international events, there are 55 minutes of racially motivated stories. Really, white guys and gals on TV setting themselves up for future execution for the crime of being white.
I did see some relevant and thought provoking coverage of race motivated police brutality, but the degree of coverage kind of blows it out of proportion with respect to many other non-racial events. Equal time, for equal crime.
I also believe that if there were a Democrat President running for re-election right now, the story to be aired today would be "What can we learn from the USA's successful handling of the pandemic?", even if all the numbers of deaths and infections were the same as now.
Also today, a news crawler: "Another noose found in Toronto construction site"
Watch out walking your dog if you are white, as you could be accused of displaying not only a noose (leash), but a SLAVE COLLAR as well. ANYTHING that can be misconstrued to fit the agenda will be.
EQUAL rights for ALL, no matter the race, creed, or gender.
" As a Canadian, I am disgusted with the very strong anti-American bias in the Canadian news media. Just today, a feature story on CTV News will be aired: "What can we learn from the USA's mishandling of the pandemic?" I truly believe that this is a very transparent attack on the current US President, during an election cycle."
"Maybe we should bring back the stocks on the village green."
Nice one Ian, could you also throw Haggis or the occasional highland coo.
Benque,
Interesting, I don't watch Canadian TV or any other countries news channels. I used to check in on BBC but it seemed like what you describe on Canadian news. Sorry you have to deal with that.
sheepshanks
"As an Englishman living in Canada I am appalled at the conduct of crowds in all our countries, making me very sad at present is the amount of litter being left by antisocial morons who are crowding beaches and beauty spots across the UK."
Vince, I'm sure some are the same folks, it is not as if there are not any litter bins about. If you could carry the stuff there, is it really difficult to take home and dispose of in your trash.
Did their parents really bring them up in that fashion. I'm sure they feel that they pay their taxes and it is therefore the job of someone else to clear up.
When I was in UK I worked in Kensington Gardens as a gardener, every day before we started the work on the flower beds and lawns we picked litter, 20 staff for about 1.5 hours every morning. The dustcart emptied the 200 litter bins. A further crew would clear rubbish through the afternoon/evening. On a summers day the cart would have to dump at least twice a day.
People just got up and walked away from their debris, sometimes even leaving hotel bedding, pots, pans glasses and cutlery, apart from the more foul stuff.
All this in a supposedly civilised society.
Sheepshanks:- Throw Haggis at them? What an "offal" idea.
"are they same ones who complain about pollution and the oceans dying? "
51Studebaker provided a link to a news report (attributed to Fox News) regarding an interview with Christopher Wray. I checked it and found a video of the interview. Judging by the amount of answers to my search (on Bing) it appears to have been widely reported in American media. I correctly stated the FBI website didn’t report the Director’s statement to Fox. You won’t get an apology from me on that subject.
As an aside, perhaps the US Senate could investigate American involvement in the affairs of other countries. El Salvador, Grenada, Guatemala, Cuba, Indonesia, Libya, Afghansitan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, to name a few.
Regarding my failure to use the word “alleged”, (immediately corrected), I demonstrated your failure to use the same word in your original post on this forum, dated 20/6 2020. You respond by quoting from your contribution on 25/6/2020 and claim that as your original post. Sorry Don, but I am correct again.
I referred to the American Flag and Confederate flag in the same sentence and jokingly posed a question. You never saw it as a joke, so I apologised. I at no time suggested you are racist, but you continually say you are being accused of that. I can find no other person saying you are, so where or when were you accused of it?
You make statements which, when checked, have not been correct. If they are correct no mention is made or acknowledgements are given. Where are the personal attacks? I asked several questions but I haven’t received answers.
Vinman chimes in implying there is anti-American rhetoric on this thread. Not from me there isn't. As previously stated, my wife and I visited your country on 50 occasions visiting 34 different states. My last 5 visits were road trips. Whenever possible, we travel on back country roads, staying in small towns because we love small town USA, the welcome we receive, interaction with locals, and because we see real America. I haven’t yet met an American person I didn’t like, so I have no agenda against either Don or the United States. Where is the anti American rhetoric?
My original contribution agreed with Don about the horrific killing of George Floyd and asked if the toppling of statues in Great Britain by protestors could be justified. I said there should be dialogue about whether they should remain, be removed, or have explanations given on the statues about the people they represented.
This thread must be a nightmare for the poor moderator. To help I would suggest a change in the rules to protect some getting upset with out-of-country criticism.
1/ People are only allowed to criticize the country they are citizens of. Americans can criticize America, Canadians Canada, Dutch Holland, English England and Scots Scotland. Nobody is allowed to criticize another country. This will include topical references like Wuhan virus and Kung Flu of course.
2/ To reinforce Rule 1 as of now we are only allowed to collect stamps of the country we belong to. Americans America, Canadians Canada, Dutch Holland, English Britain and Scots just the Scottish regional Wildings and Machins. (Sorry Ian)
You know it makes sense.
" we are only allowed to collect stamps of the country we belong to"
It's OK Ian, I covered myself by becoming one of Theresa May's citizens of nowhere. By my very convoluted logic I claim that lets me collect from everywhere and also umpire disputes over other members collecting interests. Sorry Ian it's still just the regional Wildings and Machins for you.
I can't say I've read every word of this thread but enough to get the gist of the discussion. Just to show you how hurtful the divide between races can be on both sides I offer what happened to my wife just last week. She's on facebook (I personally am not and will never be) and happened to simply "agree" with a post denouncing the tearing down of Confederate Statues. Never commented- just agreed with the post. Within an hour a post appeared claiming she was a racist. Expected? Maybe, but not by a black couple that live about 20 miles away that have been our friends for 49 years. Our kids played with their kids- even our grandkids have played with their grandkids- they were over with their grandkids twice last summer for a BBQ and swimming get together and we went out to dinner with them last fall. My wife (who is not well) was devastated. She's no more a racist than she is a Martian. I lost it- used the phone and said my piece and it wasn't nice. Point being- a 50 year on going respectful friendship ruined. I agree with 51Studebaker on the media and it's agenda.
" My wife (who is not well) was devastated. She's no more a racist than she is a Martian. I lost it- used the phone and said my piece and it wasn't nice. "
In retrospect, have you helped the situation? Was your reaction/response seen by you as supporting/protecting your wife? Would she agree with your approach?
There are not easy answers to these questions, but it does highlight a tendency of we humans to respond in a particular way when we perceive a situation in a negative way. This goes back to our caveman inheritance- and gets in the way of where we are now and want to be.
Believe me when I say this is not a criticism, but a reflection of how I have behaved in the past and can now recognize a better path that could have been followed. I share this for what it might help others to do-things that I would have done differently, in retrospect.
You/we are greater than our initial negative reactions, and we need to be able to rise above the caveman mentality. Not easy, but necessary. Consider revisiting your responses to see if the better path can be accessed. It may not be, but you deserve the effort to see if you can reconnect to a friend, now a stranger, and mend the breech.
I wish you success in your efforts.
Best,
Dan
Dani20- I regretted my actions shortly afterwards. It serves as an example on both ends of the spectrum and shows how sensitive this issue is. Speaking of both the original accusations and my immediate reaction without taking a moment to calm down and take a different approach. Now, I want to call and offer an apology but I feel an apology to my wife for the original false allegation will not be forthcoming. My wife and I have discussed this and agreed to do nothing. Friendship lost.
Stokesville,
I don't think voicing my opinion on Confederate statues not being torn down by rioters
is racist. I'm not sure how I would have reacted but I do understand your point. I don't know but maybe your friendship may not have been what you thought it was. Can it be repaired? I don't know. When I lose trust in someone it is very difficult for me to trust them again. Maybe it may be best to move on.
Dani,
I understand you are a peace maker and I see your point.
"There are not easy answers to these questions, but it does highlight a tendency of we humans to respond in a particular way when we perceive a situation in a negative way"
Aye! Act in haste, repent at leisure!
We have ALL broken that rule.
" Sorry Ian it's still just the regional Wildings and Machins for you."
Dear Vince and Stokesville,
I believe that I may now be saying something that you both already are well aware of, but for completeness I feel it appropriate to mention it again. (Thanks for the patience.)
There is a saying that reflects truth "To know all is to forgive all". Another saying from the Native American culture states "Walk a mile in the other's moccasins before condemning" makes the same point.
When I end up in political discussions with my Republican old geezer friends, we have found that if we can agree on the facts, before entering into a shouting match, we often are in more agreement than we initially thought.
On more than one occasion becoming aware of medications/pain/current issues upon their minds the perspective changes about our initial apparent differences. To know all is to forgive all is powerful medicine.
All likely not needing to be said, but I appreciate the forbearance.
Best,
Dan
Having lived in Texas, I would like to say that tying a garage door rope into a noose is a joke.
Yes, it is a dumb joke, it is a tasteless joke, it is an offensive joke ... but it is a common joke.
It becomes appalling when the noose is more than just a noose, eg, when a family or community has suffered a loss by hanging, be that a recent suicide or a not-long-ago-enough murder.
"... The news used to "report" the news. Walter Cronkite, Edward R. Murrow, The Huntley-Brinkley Report, Douglas Edwards, and so many others ..."
"... I grew up in the 1960s and ... I think everyone has a right to be young and foolish ... we were taught to always ‘follow the money’ and look for underlying agendas ..."
"... the Lincoln Emancipation Memorial statue ..."
"... Can you find the real hate crime that the protesters committed when they spray painted ‘kill whiteys’ across the pedestal of the Francis Scott Key monument? ..."
A thoughtful response IkeyPicky, with an underlying assumption that what we are seeing/being exposed to is a statement of personal feelings being expressed. I am concerned that we might be being played, by efforts from governments/groups against the concepts of personal freedom and are trying to stoke dissension.
At this time in our lives we are aware that trolls/cyber attacks/ bots/secret agenda's are all being used against us(U.S.A folk) utilizing facebook/media outlets/reporters with an agenda to try to instill fear/anger/avoidance/suspicion/isolation.
All that being said, it becomes a necessity to be aware of sources and hidden agendas, and to call them out whenever uncovered. Thus we can insure that we remain a democracy. Above all, of course, is to become an informed, alert citizen, and to vote.
Best,
Dan
Moderators, this thread has my name on it...i ask that it be ended . If people want to debate they can start their own thread. Thanks, phil
I'm closing this thread as requested by Phil, who was the thread originator.
Regards .... Tim
Some years ago an artist painted a mural on a store wall in town to show the origins of our hardscrabble area. The mural depicted a woman plowing a field..it was great until a week or so ago when someone thought "the woman may have been a slave". Thats all it took..the mural was painted over. I had always thought she was a European settler..but i guess it does not matter anymore.
re: they see what they want to see !
I love history (part of the appeal of old stamps), and I find that part of the value in studying history is to better understand how people viewed the world at that particular time. If it "made history", it was because at the time, it was considered important or noteworthy. Same with the mural Phil describes. Regardless of the alleged circumstances of the woman in the artwork, at the time, someone felt it was an appropriate homage to the hard work that resulted in your little slice of the Hudson Valley.
They say that history is written by the winners, so yes, the historical facts may be tainted to some degree. We may not agree with or support the events of the past, but it's what happened. To obliterate references to those parts of history because it is inconvenient or doesn't mesh with the current social and political climate is tantamount to propaganda. Various regimes have used similar methods to "re-write" or "erase" history over the years, and often for less than altruistic purposes.
TomD
re: they see what they want to see !
I am confused with the current atmosphere. This started as a protest against the use of force by police which was of course ignited by the horrific murder of George Floyd. I do not think that anyone (other than perhaps the bad cops defense lawyer) would try to justify this murder caught on video. But once again the media and those with agendas have weaponized this current event and now it has morphed into a protest against racism. My opinion is that the use of lethal force by police in the US has been declining over the years. This is based upon data kept and published by The Washington post (a left leaning newspaper) since 2015. Everyone can download this spreadsheet and look at the data themselves
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/
Unlike the media’s fanning the flames of hatred and division, the data reveals that the use of lethal force dropped to the lowest levels last year. Last year there were 10 unarmed, non-white people and 19 unarmed white people killed by police. Any deaths are, of course, tragic but why would anyone be surprised with these numbers considering that there were over 50+ million police encounters last year?
We have emptied the mental health facilities into the streets, we have almost 65% of black families raising kids without any fathers in the household, we have large numbers of folks who are in the grips of drug abuse. We are asking the police to play the role of fathers for kids and be drug/mental health counselors on top of their already dangerous job. But the data shows that the number of lethal encounters is an infinitesimally small percentage of all encounters. Yet the moronic media has worked hard to influence many people into thinking that there is an epidemic of lethal police encounters. If the current use of force laws are not consider appropriate then change the state laws, I do not see how knocking over statues or painting over a mural will change the use of force for law enforcement officers.
I do agree that there are real racial issues in the world including the USA. A good example is the obvious racial inequities in our educational system. And these educational system inequities seem to me to be on display recently when protesters vandalized the 54th Massachusetts Regiment Memorial in Boston. I do not understand the point of defacing memorial to the first black volunteer infantry unit in the Civil War as a part of a racial demonstration in 2020. Was this a case of historical ignorance or am I missing the point? Will they be coming for our Confederate stamps and covers next? Having the quality of your kids’ education dictated by your zip code is ludicrous and demands a better solution. But instead of driving a destruction, hatred and division agenda why not work towards improving education choices for parents?
We have stood by and allowed the media, politicians, and certain groups to weaponize yet another current event. Many of the protesters are being brought in from other parts of the country just to cause trouble. The protests are not a grassroots, organic events but rather highly organized with people who have destructive agendas. These are the seeds we have sown by allowing ourselves to be influenced by media and politicians. When did it become acceptable to be destructive as opposed to being constructive? When did it become acceptable to use identity politics to divide us all?
As I said in the COVID thread it does not matter what the current event is; racism, viruses, climate change, sexual abuse. Those with agendas have hijacked these important issues and are using fear, hatred and division to control the narrative and news cycles. It is up to people with common sense and those capable of independent thinking to stop this madness. We need to stop supporting media outlets, let advertisers know that you are not supporting them, and tell your politicians your opinion(s). Or we can just be lemmings and allow ourselves to be feed highly spun information by those with agendas.
Don
re: they see what they want to see !
It is the hypocrisy nowadays.
Lewis Hamilton the Formula One racing driver and World Champion, paid £40 million by Mercedes, has been supporting BLM quite voluably yet Mercedes had used around 6,000 forced labour "slaves" during the 1940's.
A classic example of do as I say rather than what I do.
One other thing that is never mentioned is that not all slavers were white.
My philosophy is treat other people the way you would like to be treated yourself.
re: they see what they want to see !
Perhaps The Plowing Woman was a widow, whose husband died suppressing armed treason ...
Yes, That Armed Treason.
Mercedes is making reparations ... that is supposed to be a good thing.
Meanwhile, here is Melinda's Really Stupid Idea:
"“One of the reasons we are so involved in this is that you don’t want the first vaccines to go to the highest bidding countries,” Melinda Gates explained. “There are 60 million healthcare workers [around the world]. They deserve to get the vaccine first. And then you have to start to tier from there, based on the countries and the populations. Here in the U.S., it’s going to be Black people who really should get it first and many indigenous people, as well as people with underlying symptoms, and then elderly people.”"
re: they see what they want to see !
"Mercedes is making reparations ... that is supposed to be a good thing."
re: they see what they want to see !
And let's not forget Hugo Boss, and all those snappy SS uniforms.
re: they see what they want to see !
My area is going through problems now. Halifax was founded by a very nasty person by the name of Cornwallis, so his statue was removed. Our first Canadian Prime Minister was involved with setting up residential schools for the Native population so there is talk about removing anything pertaining to him. Next is Churchill who is considered to be a racist. He probably was since most of his generation had racist leanings. There are many others, many other place names, etc. far too numerous to mention. I am not a racist and also am 62.5% native, but this seems to be going a bit far. We cannot, and should not, judge people from previous generations by our standards today - that is wrong and unfair.
re: they see what they want to see !
To say the Black Lives Matter campaign is being whipped up by the media is nonsense. It is an organic movement which sprung up immediately after the murder of George Floyd. It was instantly followed by protests in many other cities across the globe. People of every creed and colour are ashamed of the way people of colour are being treated, both in the present day and over the centuries.
While watching the crowds pulling over a slavers statue in Bristol, I was impressed that most of those involved were white people. There are so many protests taking place each day and so much alleged disorder, I cannot envisage there being so many militant activists to attend all these events.
While I am firmly on the side of the BLM protestors, I do think debate about whether symbols of past oppression should be removed, or amended is preferable to being torn down and then shown across the world on our different media portals.
re: they see what they want to see !
" It is an organic movement which sprung up immediately after the murder of George Floyd."
"In the summer of 2013, after George Zimmerman's acquittal for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, the movement began with the hashtag #BlackLivesMatter. The movement was co-founded by three black community organizers: Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, and Opal Tometi."
re: they see what they want to see !
You hated to contradict me, but you did anyway, lol.
I am aware of that. I was simply saying the recent protests were organic. Immediately after we saw the horrific treatment of George Floyd on news programmes, protests sprung up across the world. These protests were not the result of media manipulation or bias. People simply responded to an obvious injustice.
re: they see what they want to see !
Harvey:-
Have you read the Wikipedia pages on Edward Cornwallis? It is quite interesting. I had never heard of him.
I had heard of Charles Cornwallis and his escapades in the United States but not Edward.
re: they see what they want to see !
Philib,
Don't you live in upstate NY? If it was supposed to be a depiction of area history how would anyone with a smidgen of sense possibly think the woman depicted was a slave?
re: they see what they want to see !
Ian:- I've skimmed his history a few times and remember he wasn't very well liked in Scotland, and maybe Ireland as well. But, if I remember right, he was incredibly good at following orders - when they told him to kill and plunder he did it very well. When he came to Nova Scotia he didn't treat the native population very well. But, at that time, England, France and Spain did not treat the native populations in the areas they "visited" very well. The killed many of the "inferior races" that they happened to meet.
It was almost like it was their "job"! Do we hold them responsible for what they did, probably we should! But, that's what was done back then - look at what the Spanish did in South and Central America about 200 years before. They probably all saw themselves as conquerors, not explorers or settlers!
re: they see what they want to see !
Harvey:-
Unfortunately many peoples were collateral damage in the wars between the European countries. The French, the British, the Spanish, the Dutch and the Portuguese exported their wars all over the world as well as forcing their religions on the indigenous races.
Man's inhumanity to Man.
re: they see what they want to see !
"To say the Black Lives Matter campaign is being whipped up by the media is nonsense."
re: they see what they want to see !
"Don't you live in upstate NY? If it was supposed to be a depiction of area history how would anyone with a smidgen of sense possibly think the woman depicted was a slave?"
re: they see what they want to see !
Partsguy, the artist was on our local tv channel today...he was amazed that someone thought the woman was a slave..he intended her to be a Dutch woman. I am very interested in finding out what was behind the speedy painting over !
re: they see what they want to see !
51Studebaker says the American media is promoting a racial agenda by reporting for 3 or 4 days that the FBI sent over 15 agents to investigate an alleged hate crime, which in the end turned out to be a false alarm.
Either the FBI is incredibly stupid to send so many people on a fool's errand, or the media was reporting on the fact such an investigation was underway and on the process of the investigation. For the FBI to send a task force such as this, it will be national news and prolonged messaging would be on every station.
Like 51Studebaker I won't presume to comment on something I know nothing about. However, I know something of the American media, as I've visited 33 of the 50 US States over around 50 visits to your wonderful country. I am aware of the condition of your news and issues of biased reporting. By his own admissions, this event was all over the news and on every screen for 3 or 4 days. That, to my questioning brain, sounds as though reporters were sent to investigate this story. Either the reporters, or the investigators, or both were slow to do their jobs.
re: they see what they want to see !
"...media was reporting on the fact such an investigation was underway and on the process of the investigation..."
re: they see what they want to see !
"This cannot be defended as objective reporting and this was just one of hundred of news stories that were just like this."
re: they see what they want to see !
The news used to "report" the news. Walter Cronkite, Edward R. Murrow, The Huntley-Brinkley Report, Douglas Edwards, and so many others.
Even CNN in it's early days - who can forget Peter, Bernie and John reporting live from the hotel room in Baghdad?
And now we have ........................?
re: they see what they want to see !
We have officially crossed the point of no return..... We have crossed the Rubicon.... there will be no turning back.....
There was always a line... no matter what your political stripe, Dem or Republican, or anything in between, that the use of violence was an unacceptable way of accomplishing political goals in the US. That's what other countries did; we were always better than that. Now don't misunderstand me, I know that we have had our fair share of riots in the past but there is something fundamentally different going on here.
Now, we have national politicians and the media endorsing and indeed encouraging the violence. This is new.
Oh, well. Nothing lasts forever. Goodbye America. Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war.
re: they see what they want to see !
Phil, was the mural altered, or completely covered over?
re: they see what they want to see !
In an earlier comment I said I wouldn't comment on something I knew nothing about. I then watched the news video kindly provided by 51Studebaker. My reaction to the is that the report spent little time on the incident and more time showing the Confederate flag. They showed the flag on cars, on tee shirts, on posters and on a plane. No comment during the report stated the FBI had become involved. Other than that, I thought the item reached the standards of reporting which is now accepted by television viewers.
To educate myself, I googled "Bubba Watson Noose". I found many reports stating a noose WAS found in the garage. The FBI report stated the offensive item had been in situ since November of last year, and the garage had been randomly allocated to Watson only last week. Does that make it less offensive? Was the item "Fake News"? Was 51Studebaker accurate in his description? To those 3 questions my answer is no.
Brechinite explains quality of reporting is not now what it used to be. I wholeheartedly agree. I've stopped buying newspapers. A few years ago I bought 3 newspapers every day, 2 broadsheets and a tabloid. I realised each news item was almost always identical. Newspapers cut and pasted reports (normally issued by PR departments) and then sold them as news. On rare occasions when there appeared to be differences, examination showed minuscule variations between different reports. Adjectives would be changed, but the basics were always the same. Sadly, this also applies to sports coverage. If these reports were university tests, all would be seen by examiners as plagiarism.
Where television formerly recruited the brightest journalistic stars, sadly now any person who has a mobile phone can, and does, call themselves a reporter. Like published print, standards have fallen to, what I often think is, unacceptable levels. TV reporters are now employed based on their gender, sex, or cultural ethnicity, not on ability.
Here in Scotland, I have the luxury of living in a multi racial and multi cultural country. Fortunately racism is on the wane. We don't have a colonial past. Sadly we do have remnants of the legacy of slavery in the form of statues to people who got rich from the backs of slaves. Black Lives Matter made me question the legitimacy of honouring these long dead people. That doesn't mean I will be lining up to topple statues, or pull off street signs, but I am in favour of debate as to whether they should remain in place.
re: they see what they want to see !
"…To educate myself, I googled "Bubba Watson Noose"…"
re: they see what they want to see !
51Studebaker certainly has his knickers in a twist. I don't wish to get into an argument about this. I said I googled "Bubba Watson Noose". I omitted to say I followed links to 3 British National newspaper reports of the alleged incident (which as stated in an earlier post) all turned out the same. I hardly think that is being educated by Google. If Google gives a left wing bias, so what? Your colours are showing Don, whether they be Confederate or Old Glory. All 3 newspapers (Times, Telegraph, and Guardian) reported the FBI stated there was a noose which was in place for around 6 months. Are the FBI wrong?
My intervention in this debate was to attempt to balance the discussion. For centuries people of colour have been enslaved and discriminated against. George Floyd is only the latest in a long line of coloured people murdered by police. Thankfully (sic) his murder was caught on camera. God bless mobile phones and untrained journalists. Or should we say his alleged murder? Both my wife and I were outraged at the death of George Floyd. While we have not physically protested, we both agree that attitudes must change. It may be against the law in America to practice discrimination against coloured people, but how can you enforce the law if police are the worst offenders?
People can quote statistics about the number of deaths of black people in police custody, saying they are almost the same as those of white people, but tonight I watched a parent of a 16 year old black American boy tell of having "the talk" with his son about the need to act in the most compliant way possible and never to look them in the eye if stopped by police, giving no opportunity to police for arrest, assault, or worse. Do parents of white teenagers have the same discussion? As a white visitor many times to the USA I have never been in fear of your police, but would I feel the same if I were black?
Bubba Wallace accepts this was not racist. NASCAR accept it was not racist. American and British press accept it was not racist. Seems to me the discussion now revolves around whether the Southern Cross should be permitted by NASCAR. I have an opinion on that but this is Stamporama, not American Hot Rods. I also have opinions on the language Don uses to justify his argument. I leave it to others to form their own opinion.
Like Don, I grew up in the 60's, but it seems the similarity ends there. I never smoked dope, and I went to work in a coal mine shortly after my 16th birthday. I was left wing in my twenties, but we had Thatcher then and everyone was. I owned a business for 30 years, employed people, and worked hard to keep a roof over my family and my employees families too, so my politics mellowed. I always believed there are 2 sides to a story and to check facts before rushing to judgement. Don, it seems to me, you think anyone who disagrees with you is left wing. I may be Pinko Liberal, but I'm not left wing now.
I am aware of the state of the media in America. Reporting on this issue will not result in anyone winning a Pulitzer prize. However, I have learned never, ever, to believe anything I see on Fox news, as a result of having watched 2 programmes about their history. Media, whether it is TV, newspapers, online, or elsewhere always display the agenda of those who own them. In the U.K. our media has many problems, but we are still able to achieve balance and fairness. Surely that can be achieved in America too?
re: they see what they want to see !
" but we are still able to achieve balance and fairness."
re: they see what they want to see !
Gudgie,
I do not want to get in any discussion right or wrong on the ongoing subject, but you asked,
""Do parents of white teenagers have the same discussion?""
re: they see what they want to see !
"I hardly think that is being educated by Google."
"Your colours are showing Don, whether they be Confederate or Old Glory."
"People can quote statistics about the number of deaths of black people in police custody, saying they are almost the same as those of white people, "
"Or should we say his alleged murder?"
"tonight I watched a parent of a 16 year old black American boy tell of having "the talk" with his son about the need to act in the most compliant way possible and never to look them in the eye if stopped by police, giving no opportunity to police for arrest, assault, or worse. Do parents of white teenagers have the same discussion? "
"Don, it seems to me, you think anyone who disagrees with you is left wing. I may be Pinko Liberal, but I'm not left wing now. "
re: they see what they want to see !
I obviously touched a nerve with 51Studebaker. Don if I upset you I apologise. I was participating in a discussion about a subject of great interest to both of us. While my apology is genuine, after reviewing all my contributions, I am unable to locate any inflammatory statements. Is “Your colours are showing Don, whether they be Confederate or Old Glory” inflammatory?
Is “I also have opinions on the language Don uses to justify his argument. I leave it to others to form their own opinion” inflammatory? While “Don, it seems to me, you think anyone who disagrees with you is left wing” may be questionable, it’s no more questionable than “Could it be that being educated via Google, which is renowned it’s left leaning search results, might not be a good place to get all sides of a story? “
I did ask some questions of Don though. I’m not sure any were answered. I’ll repeat them. “I found many reports stating a noose WAS found in the garage. The FBI report stated the offensive item had been in situ since November of last year, and the garage had been randomly allocated to Watson only last week. Does that make it less offensive? Was the item "Fake News"? Was 51Studebaker accurate in his description?
Below is the statement from the FBI about the noose found in the pits at Talladega
Joint Statement from U.S. Attorney Jay E. Town and FBI Special Agent in Charge Johnnie Sharp, Jr. Regarding the Noose Found in NASCAR’s Bubba Wallace’s Garage at Talladega Superspeedway
"The FBI learned that garage number 4, where the noose was found, was assigned to Bubba Wallace last week. The investigation also revealed evidence, including authentic video confirmed by NASCAR, that the noose found in garage number 4 was in that garage as early as October 2019. Although the noose is now known to have been in garage number 4 in 2019, nobody could have known Mr. Wallace would be assigned to garage number 4 last week".
I said “the FBI stated there was a noose which was in place for around 6 months. Are the FBI wrong?” The above direct quotation uses the word “noose” 4 times. Nowhere in the complete, statement does it say the rope was a garage door pull tied in a ring, yet Don frequently calls it a rope.
I asked “how can you enforce the law if police are the worst offenders?” No answer.
Don, you wrote “Yesterday the FBI Director said that the FBI has opened an investigation into foreign influence and interference in the US protests. The Director said that the protests are not being driven by a single ideology movement or group but rather by those with other agendas. Of course this news is not getting much coverage in the mainstream, folks can form their own opinions as to why it is not.” Tonight I searched the FBI website. (https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel) I looked at FBI Press Releases for the last 2 months and could find no record of any such statement by the FBI Director. As you said Don “Folks can form their own opinions”.
I mistakenly omitted the word “alleged in one sentence, but quickly added it 1 line later. You lectured me “The presumption of innocence is the legal principle and this is considered an international human right by the UN and most countries.” Perhaps you forgot that it was you, who on 20/6/2020, on this forum wrote “This started as a protest against the use of force by police which was of course ignited by the horrific murder of George Floyd. I don ot think that anyone (other than perhaps the bad cops defense lawyer) would try to justify this murder caught on video”. You attempted to educate me on journalism basics, but somewhere in that book the word consistency must be mentioned..
To Brechinite, I say I never listen to Radio Scotland, but I do get a balanced view of news.
Don, I repeat my apology from the start of this contribution. If I offended I am sorry. I joined this forum because I was outraged at the killing, while unarmed and in police custody, of George Floyd. Like you I stated my opinions. I attempted to keep my contributions lighthearted, but obviously you disagree.
re: they see what they want to see !
Anglophile attacks me, then says personal attacks are totally unacceptable. That seems lost on me. Please tell me is it okay to criticise me for using Google?
I made a sincere apology earlier. I attempted to refocus this discussion on the reasons I joined in. I questioned the accuracy of some statements previously made, and I nailed my anti racist colours to the mast.
Anglophile, rather than make a contribution to the discussion then does what he says is wrong, by making a personal attack on me. He then closed in a rude manner "Got it? Good. Carry on." I left school more than 50 years ago, and have not been spoken to in that manner since some time before I left school.
Where we agree is when he said " A person is NOT evil if their ideas are different.". I think it was Voltaire who said "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend until death your right to say it".
In every contribution I made to this discussion I have at all times addressed the ideas, and will continue to do so. Feel free to contribute your opinions on this important subject Anglophile.
re: they see what they want to see !
" "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend until death your right to say it"."
re: they see what they want to see !
What?!? There's a flame session going on and I missed it??? Yall need to get a hobby. Oh, wait. You all do have a hobby.
re: they see what they want to see !
Gudgie,
When you disagree with someone you can simply say, ‘I disagree with Joe because of X, Y, and Z’. You do not have to call another person’s opinion ‘nonsense’ as you did in your very first post. But let’s move on.
All,
I apologize for the length of this post in advance but this is an important topic.
The majority of my comments have been about the media and those who are weaponizing important issues for their own money/power agendas. I stated in the beginning that I think that racism does indeed exist in all societies but when the issue gets hijacked by the media and politicians it undermines the effort to make real improvements. The media and politicians seize the moment to give lip service that serves only themselves. I gave an example of the inequities in the US educational system and mention how this was revealed in the vandalized the 54th Massachusetts Regiment Memorial in Boston. The US main stream media largely ignored this obvious hypocrisy and now history is doomed to repeat itself. The real issue is racial the inequities in the US educational system but this is ignored in favor of covering protests and some politicians are encouraging more protests.
Now there are protesters who have made plans to topple the Lincoln Emancipation Memorial statue, if the authorities had not stepped in they certainly would have already tried to topple and/or vandalized it. This is a memorial which was purchased and erected by freed slaves to honor Lincoln and his leadership in emancipation, this is a memorial which was dedicated by Fredrick Douglas. This memorial used to see an endless stream of teachers bringing their classrooms to teach them about US history and importance of emancipation; but this is not happening now due to the protesters intimidating people who approach it. And if they have their way this will no longer happen at all. I am at a complete loss to understand how this helps anything. Is the protest helping address the racial inequities in the US educational system? Is it helping minorities get better jobs? I see virtual no airtime given to addressing the real issues.
Allow me to give another example of how the media and those with agendas totally miss the real opportunity and instead pander and weaponize an important issue like racism. Facebook is embraced as a ‘woke’ company because they police the content of their venue for opinions that do not match what they think is a ‘woke’ perspective. Isn’t it great that many folks in our hobby support a ‘woke’ company like Facebook. Apparently Facebook’s lip service is enough to convince people that Facebook is a real leader in fighting racism. Does anyone care that Facebook’s workforce is comprised of only 4% African-Americans? Digging deeper, it turns out that only 1% of technology jobs are filled by African-Americans. Does this sound like a ‘woke’ company? Where is the hours and hours of media reporting calling out this hiring behavior? Why are not the protestors standing in front of Facebook buildings?
I also posted my opinion about the media bias and used the recent coverage of the ‘hate crime noose’ as an example. Many in the and out of the media are now zeroing in on the word ‘noose’ instead of the mistakes they made in their the rush to judgement and using a unverified story as evidence of systemic racism in America. But the insidious thing about the media is not simply their obvious biased reporting, it is a number of other ways they try to manipulate viewers. For example controlling what the lead story is, controlling how much time they spend on a story, controlling the crawls and other graphics around the screen or page, and most importantly controlling what they do NOT report on.
If something does not fit their narrative it is ignored and instead the time is filled with promoting their narrative only. How many hours and hours was invested on the ‘noose hate crime’ story? While this was happened, there have been real hate crimes occurring which have been ignored. Here is a simple example, the Francis Scott Key monument. Try and Googling ‘Francis Scott Key monument’ and see what returned. Can you find the real hate crime that the protesters committed when they spray painted ‘kill whiteys’ across the pedestal of the Francis Scott Key monument? Where were the hours and hours of news coverage on this hate crime? Where were the 15 FBI agents rushing in the next day to investigate this hate crime? Now Google the word ‘noose’ and see what gets returned.
I am not a lemming and resist being manipulated by the media and big tech companies. I know that I was born equal, I know that I treat others as I want to be treated, I know that I form my opinions about others based upon their character and not their skin color, nationality, religion, or sex. I have no ‘white guilt’ nor do I feel any need to virtual signal to others. I am willing to help fight injustice if it is in a nondestructive and productive way but I also will callout those who try to hijack important issues with hidden agendas and deceptive practices. I am not going to sit quietly and be intimated by anyone who calls me racist or privileged nor I am going to support politicians who latch onto whatever the current news cycle topics might be and pretend to ‘fix it’.
Currently we have many national politicians who want to demonstrate that they are relevant by pretending that Federal laws will address and ‘fix’ the use of force in law enforcement. How stupid do they think we are? There is no US national police force, police enforcement all occurs at the state and local level. Every state and local official have had decades to changes the use of force laws. Take NY city and NY state as an example. If the NYC police force is practicing systematic racism (which seems odd to me since the majority of NYPD is African-American) by using things like choke holds, then NY state and NYC officials could have changes the use of force laws themselves. All of the areas in the US which are considered problematic are controlled by local officials who change things if they wanted to. But instead they have left their communities rot, decay, and feaster but now want to make this a Federal issue? America is a Republic. I vote in and have the most influence in my community, I have much less ability to change things in Chicago or New York. In my opinion the best opportunity to make real changes, changes that help people and not just pandering and lip service, is at the local level.
America is not racist, there is no systematic racism in in US law enforcement or the judicial system. This is not 1950. There are some very real issues where an unbiased media could really help but they are completely missing the opportunity. Has anyone heard of Mekhi James? No, but everyone has heard of George Floyd. If Black Lives really Matter than why is not has not the media raised the name Mekhi James onto the tip of everyone’s tongue? In a single weekend there were more black lives lost in Chicago then the number of unarmed black people killed by police for an entire year. But there is no money or power in promoting the real information like this, there is no money or power in stories about Facebook only having 4% black employees. You get money and power by whipping up people who are either too ignorant or apathetic to look beyond their 30 second sound bites and instant online searches and in my opinion this is what is happening.
Don
Edit: I strongly disagree with the Mods removing Anglophile post. Not only has this broken the flow of the thread but his post was no more of a personal attack than others in this thread.
re: they see what they want to see !
@Gudgie
"It is an organic movement..."
re: they see what they want to see !
"Don, you wrote “Yesterday the FBI Director said that the FBI has opened an investigation into foreign influence and interference in the US protests. The Director said that the protests are not being driven by a single ideology movement or group but rather by those with other agendas. Of course this news is not getting much coverage in the mainstream, folks can form their own opinions as to why it is not.” Tonight I searched the FBI website. (https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel) I looked at FBI Press Releases for the last 2 months and could find no record of any such statement by the FBI Director. As you said Don “Folks can form their own opinions”."
"However, I have learned never, ever, to believe anything I see on Fox news, as a result of having watched 2 programmes about their history."
"I mistakenly omitted the word “alleged in one sentence, but quickly added it 1 line later. You lectured me “The presumption of innocence is the legal principle and this is considered an international human right by the UN and most countries.”"
" Of course we all can have our own opinions. But the media calling a rope with a loop to pull a garage door down a hate crime noose was a rush to judgment and dishonest by any standard. I am sure that next I’ll be called racist since I put a ‘noose’ around my neck this morning and went out in public. I thought I innocently put on a coat and tie; but this thing is a noose and by me wearing it around my neck I am clearly racist.
Journalism 101 teaches reporters to use the word ‘alleged’, it is literally taught the first day of Journalism class and then reiterated over and over. Another of the most basic journalism skills is to always question the leads you receive. The standard Journalism adage used to be ‘If your mother tells you she loves you, check it out’; cautioning reporters to use critical thinking and to always check their leads. Why are those who are trying to spin this ‘noose’ story ignoring the fact that no one even bothered to seek a image or send a reporter to the Talladega garage? What is not being reported on is that many in NASCAR knew immediately that this was not a noose or a hate crime but they did not feel comfortable in coming forward knowing that they would be called racist?"
re: they see what they want to see !
"I strongly disagree with the Mods removing Anglophile post. Not only has this broken the flow of the thread"
re: they see what they want to see !
Don,
Why do you bother? There are members here that don’t agree with you and will attack you for your opinion. I gave up posting. There were members from Australia, Great Britain and Canada who had way too much to say about America and how bad it is. When confronted with their obvious disdain for America my post were deleted. I have had a running conversation with members here and when they didn’t like my response the moderators removed parts of my posts. It would make me look foolish because the context of the conversation would be lost. The moderators like to remove post that I was responding to so my posts did not make sense. I have received hate messages and email from members on this board attacking me and my beliefs, when I brought this up to the moderators I was asked what did I do to make them send me these hateful messages. Really, what did I do! For the record they are members from other countries not America.
The moderators have the right to do as they see fit but just like the MSM they are interested in their own agenda. I wonder how long this post will last?
Vince
re: they see what they want to see !
" But the insidious thing about the media is not simply their obvious biased reporting, it is a number of other ways they try to manipulate viewers. For example controlling what the lead story is, controlling how much time they spend on a story, controlling the crawls and other graphics around the screen or page, and most importantly controlling what they do NOT report on."
re: they see what they want to see !
Hi Vince
I think that it is important at this time in history to stand up and be heard and as is often quoted, ‘those who stand for nothing fall for everything’.
I agree that this community has a bit too much nationalism at times and I try to avoid getting sucked into it, from my chair it appears to come from a handful of folks.
To be honest I try not to comment on other countries and cultures because while I have visited some I have not lived there. I also do not trust that I can glean a good cultural understanding via Wiki or Google, for me this leads to a weak and unsatisfactory kind of knowledge.
Censorship-wise I understand the Moderator dilemma, I have been a Moderator of various forums since 2000. I have no delusions about ‘free speech’ in these kinds of forums, they are privately owned and they can managed them in any way they see fit. We all agreed to these Terms and Conditions when we signed up so it is whatever it is. But that said, I appreciate consistent Moderation and in this thread I am not seeing that.
Don
re: they see what they want to see !
"I have no delusions about ‘free speech’ in these kinds of forums, they are privately owned and they can managed them in any way they see fit. We all agreed to these Terms and Conditions when we signed u"
re: they see what they want to see !
Don,
Thanks for your response. I agree with what you said ‘those who stand for nothing fall for everything’. I was taught in a different time as you were, 60’s & 70’s. I was always taught to question everything. I had a Catholic school education and by the time I hit high school I was even taught to question my own beliefs and other religions and cultures. It’s a large world out there and many different points of view.
I don't use Google or Facebook or Wiki for my information. How did that song go, "believe half of what you see and some or none of what you hear".
When you were accused of “Your colours are showing Don, whether they be Confederate or Old Glory” inflammatory? I know you are thick skinned but I even found that to be offensive especially coming from a person who don’t live in your country. It was just a shot at being an American and our flag, Old Glory or were you being accused of being a racist with the “Confederate” remark.
You are correct about “consistent Moderation”. I understand the moderator’s dilemma but I don’t see consistent moderation. It’s their board and are free to delete as they feel.
Vince
re: they see what they want to see !
There's a lot here that really interests me,and being contributed by highly educated and intellingent folks, yet I'm loathe to jump for all the personal side trips we're taking.
It seems most of this is now refutations and counterrefutations of he said he saids. Personally, I have found those arguments best done behind the curtains, and there are people in this very thread with whom I have done just that, sometimes at my initiation and sometimes their's. We're damn near close to friends, even if our allegiances haven't moved a micron.
I'd urge us to return to the topics: initially the little Dutch immigrant/slash slave/slash Basque mother; and media malaise.
I'll start us off with the latter: i personally find a few media sources really useful, credible, accurate, and, when wrong, saying so. There's also an enormous number of outlets that are either lazy or so understaffed that well, there's no reason to read them, or they have surrendered journalistic ethics while retaining words like "news" in their description.
As to Google and facebook, Google is algorhythmic-based, and it, like those who monetize their own activity on it, follow the money. This is the first time i've heard Facebook called left-leaning. While they have silos in which it is unlikely a left guy will ever see a right guy, or vice versa, I don't think Mark and company are particularly political; they just want to be left alone to make more money, left, right, and truth be damned.
I try not to personally offend, but if I have, PM me and we'll keep it from being a world-wide conflagaration.
re: they see what they want to see !
I very much like and agree with what you have written Don.
For Vince: As a Canadian, I am disgusted with the very strong anti-American bias in the Canadian news media. Just today, a feature story on CTV News will be aired: "What can we learn from the USA's mishandling of the pandemic?" I truly believe that this is a very transparent attack on the current US President, during an election cycle.
And, for every 5 minutes of time dedicated to local or international events, there are 55 minutes of racially motivated stories. Really, white guys and gals on TV setting themselves up for future execution for the crime of being white.
I did see some relevant and thought provoking coverage of race motivated police brutality, but the degree of coverage kind of blows it out of proportion with respect to many other non-racial events. Equal time, for equal crime.
I also believe that if there were a Democrat President running for re-election right now, the story to be aired today would be "What can we learn from the USA's successful handling of the pandemic?", even if all the numbers of deaths and infections were the same as now.
Also today, a news crawler: "Another noose found in Toronto construction site"
Watch out walking your dog if you are white, as you could be accused of displaying not only a noose (leash), but a SLAVE COLLAR as well. ANYTHING that can be misconstrued to fit the agenda will be.
EQUAL rights for ALL, no matter the race, creed, or gender.
re: they see what they want to see !
" As a Canadian, I am disgusted with the very strong anti-American bias in the Canadian news media. Just today, a feature story on CTV News will be aired: "What can we learn from the USA's mishandling of the pandemic?" I truly believe that this is a very transparent attack on the current US President, during an election cycle."
re: they see what they want to see !
"Maybe we should bring back the stocks on the village green."
re: they see what they want to see !
Nice one Ian, could you also throw Haggis or the occasional highland coo.
re: they see what they want to see !
Benque,
Interesting, I don't watch Canadian TV or any other countries news channels. I used to check in on BBC but it seemed like what you describe on Canadian news. Sorry you have to deal with that.
sheepshanks
"As an Englishman living in Canada I am appalled at the conduct of crowds in all our countries, making me very sad at present is the amount of litter being left by antisocial morons who are crowding beaches and beauty spots across the UK."
re: they see what they want to see !
Vince, I'm sure some are the same folks, it is not as if there are not any litter bins about. If you could carry the stuff there, is it really difficult to take home and dispose of in your trash.
Did their parents really bring them up in that fashion. I'm sure they feel that they pay their taxes and it is therefore the job of someone else to clear up.
When I was in UK I worked in Kensington Gardens as a gardener, every day before we started the work on the flower beds and lawns we picked litter, 20 staff for about 1.5 hours every morning. The dustcart emptied the 200 litter bins. A further crew would clear rubbish through the afternoon/evening. On a summers day the cart would have to dump at least twice a day.
People just got up and walked away from their debris, sometimes even leaving hotel bedding, pots, pans glasses and cutlery, apart from the more foul stuff.
All this in a supposedly civilised society.
re: they see what they want to see !
Sheepshanks:- Throw Haggis at them? What an "offal" idea.
"are they same ones who complain about pollution and the oceans dying? "
re: they see what they want to see !
51Studebaker provided a link to a news report (attributed to Fox News) regarding an interview with Christopher Wray. I checked it and found a video of the interview. Judging by the amount of answers to my search (on Bing) it appears to have been widely reported in American media. I correctly stated the FBI website didn’t report the Director’s statement to Fox. You won’t get an apology from me on that subject.
As an aside, perhaps the US Senate could investigate American involvement in the affairs of other countries. El Salvador, Grenada, Guatemala, Cuba, Indonesia, Libya, Afghansitan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, to name a few.
Regarding my failure to use the word “alleged”, (immediately corrected), I demonstrated your failure to use the same word in your original post on this forum, dated 20/6 2020. You respond by quoting from your contribution on 25/6/2020 and claim that as your original post. Sorry Don, but I am correct again.
I referred to the American Flag and Confederate flag in the same sentence and jokingly posed a question. You never saw it as a joke, so I apologised. I at no time suggested you are racist, but you continually say you are being accused of that. I can find no other person saying you are, so where or when were you accused of it?
You make statements which, when checked, have not been correct. If they are correct no mention is made or acknowledgements are given. Where are the personal attacks? I asked several questions but I haven’t received answers.
Vinman chimes in implying there is anti-American rhetoric on this thread. Not from me there isn't. As previously stated, my wife and I visited your country on 50 occasions visiting 34 different states. My last 5 visits were road trips. Whenever possible, we travel on back country roads, staying in small towns because we love small town USA, the welcome we receive, interaction with locals, and because we see real America. I haven’t yet met an American person I didn’t like, so I have no agenda against either Don or the United States. Where is the anti American rhetoric?
My original contribution agreed with Don about the horrific killing of George Floyd and asked if the toppling of statues in Great Britain by protestors could be justified. I said there should be dialogue about whether they should remain, be removed, or have explanations given on the statues about the people they represented.
re: they see what they want to see !
This thread must be a nightmare for the poor moderator. To help I would suggest a change in the rules to protect some getting upset with out-of-country criticism.
1/ People are only allowed to criticize the country they are citizens of. Americans can criticize America, Canadians Canada, Dutch Holland, English England and Scots Scotland. Nobody is allowed to criticize another country. This will include topical references like Wuhan virus and Kung Flu of course.
2/ To reinforce Rule 1 as of now we are only allowed to collect stamps of the country we belong to. Americans America, Canadians Canada, Dutch Holland, English Britain and Scots just the Scottish regional Wildings and Machins. (Sorry Ian)
You know it makes sense.
re: they see what they want to see !
" we are only allowed to collect stamps of the country we belong to"
re: they see what they want to see !
It's OK Ian, I covered myself by becoming one of Theresa May's citizens of nowhere. By my very convoluted logic I claim that lets me collect from everywhere and also umpire disputes over other members collecting interests. Sorry Ian it's still just the regional Wildings and Machins for you.
re: they see what they want to see !
I can't say I've read every word of this thread but enough to get the gist of the discussion. Just to show you how hurtful the divide between races can be on both sides I offer what happened to my wife just last week. She's on facebook (I personally am not and will never be) and happened to simply "agree" with a post denouncing the tearing down of Confederate Statues. Never commented- just agreed with the post. Within an hour a post appeared claiming she was a racist. Expected? Maybe, but not by a black couple that live about 20 miles away that have been our friends for 49 years. Our kids played with their kids- even our grandkids have played with their grandkids- they were over with their grandkids twice last summer for a BBQ and swimming get together and we went out to dinner with them last fall. My wife (who is not well) was devastated. She's no more a racist than she is a Martian. I lost it- used the phone and said my piece and it wasn't nice. Point being- a 50 year on going respectful friendship ruined. I agree with 51Studebaker on the media and it's agenda.
re: they see what they want to see !
" My wife (who is not well) was devastated. She's no more a racist than she is a Martian. I lost it- used the phone and said my piece and it wasn't nice. "
In retrospect, have you helped the situation? Was your reaction/response seen by you as supporting/protecting your wife? Would she agree with your approach?
There are not easy answers to these questions, but it does highlight a tendency of we humans to respond in a particular way when we perceive a situation in a negative way. This goes back to our caveman inheritance- and gets in the way of where we are now and want to be.
Believe me when I say this is not a criticism, but a reflection of how I have behaved in the past and can now recognize a better path that could have been followed. I share this for what it might help others to do-things that I would have done differently, in retrospect.
You/we are greater than our initial negative reactions, and we need to be able to rise above the caveman mentality. Not easy, but necessary. Consider revisiting your responses to see if the better path can be accessed. It may not be, but you deserve the effort to see if you can reconnect to a friend, now a stranger, and mend the breech.
I wish you success in your efforts.
Best,
Dan
re: they see what they want to see !
Dani20- I regretted my actions shortly afterwards. It serves as an example on both ends of the spectrum and shows how sensitive this issue is. Speaking of both the original accusations and my immediate reaction without taking a moment to calm down and take a different approach. Now, I want to call and offer an apology but I feel an apology to my wife for the original false allegation will not be forthcoming. My wife and I have discussed this and agreed to do nothing. Friendship lost.
re: they see what they want to see !
Stokesville,
I don't think voicing my opinion on Confederate statues not being torn down by rioters
is racist. I'm not sure how I would have reacted but I do understand your point. I don't know but maybe your friendship may not have been what you thought it was. Can it be repaired? I don't know. When I lose trust in someone it is very difficult for me to trust them again. Maybe it may be best to move on.
Dani,
I understand you are a peace maker and I see your point.
"There are not easy answers to these questions, but it does highlight a tendency of we humans to respond in a particular way when we perceive a situation in a negative way"
re: they see what they want to see !
" Sorry Ian it's still just the regional Wildings and Machins for you."
re: they see what they want to see !
Dear Vince and Stokesville,
I believe that I may now be saying something that you both already are well aware of, but for completeness I feel it appropriate to mention it again. (Thanks for the patience.)
There is a saying that reflects truth "To know all is to forgive all". Another saying from the Native American culture states "Walk a mile in the other's moccasins before condemning" makes the same point.
When I end up in political discussions with my Republican old geezer friends, we have found that if we can agree on the facts, before entering into a shouting match, we often are in more agreement than we initially thought.
On more than one occasion becoming aware of medications/pain/current issues upon their minds the perspective changes about our initial apparent differences. To know all is to forgive all is powerful medicine.
All likely not needing to be said, but I appreciate the forbearance.
Best,
Dan
re: they see what they want to see !
Having lived in Texas, I would like to say that tying a garage door rope into a noose is a joke.
Yes, it is a dumb joke, it is a tasteless joke, it is an offensive joke ... but it is a common joke.
It becomes appalling when the noose is more than just a noose, eg, when a family or community has suffered a loss by hanging, be that a recent suicide or a not-long-ago-enough murder.
"... The news used to "report" the news. Walter Cronkite, Edward R. Murrow, The Huntley-Brinkley Report, Douglas Edwards, and so many others ..."
"... I grew up in the 1960s and ... I think everyone has a right to be young and foolish ... we were taught to always ‘follow the money’ and look for underlying agendas ..."
"... the Lincoln Emancipation Memorial statue ..."
"... Can you find the real hate crime that the protesters committed when they spray painted ‘kill whiteys’ across the pedestal of the Francis Scott Key monument? ..."
re: they see what they want to see !
A thoughtful response IkeyPicky, with an underlying assumption that what we are seeing/being exposed to is a statement of personal feelings being expressed. I am concerned that we might be being played, by efforts from governments/groups against the concepts of personal freedom and are trying to stoke dissension.
At this time in our lives we are aware that trolls/cyber attacks/ bots/secret agenda's are all being used against us(U.S.A folk) utilizing facebook/media outlets/reporters with an agenda to try to instill fear/anger/avoidance/suspicion/isolation.
All that being said, it becomes a necessity to be aware of sources and hidden agendas, and to call them out whenever uncovered. Thus we can insure that we remain a democracy. Above all, of course, is to become an informed, alert citizen, and to vote.
Best,
Dan
re: they see what they want to see !
Moderators, this thread has my name on it...i ask that it be ended . If people want to debate they can start their own thread. Thanks, phil
re: they see what they want to see !
I'm closing this thread as requested by Phil, who was the thread originator.
Regards .... Tim