Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Herewith, a recent acquisition where a Christmas seal is used as postage.
The usage is especially nice on a number of counts. First is its illegal use. Second, a machine cancel ought to have caught its lack of phosphor and therefore the machine ought not to have been triggered. Third, the cover is to a local Lung Association, which are getting rarer and rarer. Finally, according to the most recent seal survey, this predates the current EKU by seven days.
All in all a nice find
David
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Yes, it's items like that that ALMOST make me want to collect more covers! I've avoided the temptation, for the most part, but stuff like that is really appealing. Thanks for sharing!
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Hi David,
Nice item -- not to rain on the parade, but: did you check that it does not say "no postage required" under the seal? Given that it is a pre-printed business return envelope it is possible that return postage was guaranteed.
The machine cancel does not appear to orginate from a machine using tagging to face and cancel envelopes. I will double check though. Standard hand driven and electric machines of various makes and models, which all require manual facing of envelopes remained in use for a long time, even until present day (but you very rarely see anything but inkjets these days).
Arno
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Arno, I did not look under the seal. All the other, similar covers I acquired (all from the same local lung assoc) were franked. That doesn't prove anything, of course.
wasn't the convention to include a notice near the address that indicates prepayment of postage? I don't recall only the boxed BRE indicum; only in tandem with the ovalesque statement about prepayment near the address. Or another of my old man hallucinations.
Lars, these are fascinating. Nothing like being viewed as a temptress (or its male equivalent). The dark side beckons.....lars...................lars......................
David
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and, why does reading something like
"not to rain on the parade, but:
"
cause my stomach to knot up instantaneously?
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Yes,
"not to rain on the parade, but:"
always makes for a great lead-in.
I am not sure if there had to be an additional mentioning of the fact that postage was guaranteed by the recipient. Perhaps you can sacrifice one of the other similar covers you have to find out for sure; but the fact that all the others were franked is a very good indicator that postage indeed was required. So, no rain on the parade after all.
Arno
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thanks Arno, I was despairing trying to find my umbrella
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How about Postage used as Revenue ? Here is one on a Bank check.
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Another Postage Stamp used on document
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That is another interesting improper use I never thought about! This is really fascinating. It brings to mind something I read several years ago about a use during WWI for Parcel Post stamps to pay some special war tax. I don't recall the details at this point.
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Lars, never heard of that; hope you can find details.
The war tax in America was simply an increase of major rates (letter and PC) by a penny (increasing by 1/3 and 1/2, respectively). This made sense because the USPOD was fully governmental, and its revenues flowed to Treasury, unlike today where only expenses incurred by USPS are sent to Treasury, but no funds are forthcoming.
David
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David, it was a 1c tax for any Parcel Post package with 25c or more in postage. It was 1c for the first 25c and 1c for each additional portion thereof. I don't know if it was a postage stamp or a tax stamp. It was around 1918 or so.
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David,
When I got home I checked my notebook where I keep oddball info that I may wish to refer back to at some point and found these two items:
1. New York Times - Nov 29, 1917 - "{Tax} Collector William H. Edwards of the Second or Wall Street Internal Revenue District yesterday gave out a statement calling attention to the fact that the war stamp taxes on many transactions will become effective Saturday ... Revenue stamps will also have to be affixed to parcel post packages on which the postage amounts to 25 cents or more."
2. Official Bulletin - December 8, 1917 (A. M. Dockery, Third Assistant Postmaster General) has an article titled - "War Tax on Parcel-Post Mail Must Be Paid In Internal Revenue Stamps, Canceled By Sender". There you can find all of the particulars. (The revenue stamp was to be canceled in ink with date and initials by sender, similar to use on legal documents. Perhaps a Revenue collector has an example).
According to Beecher & Wawrukiewicz, even for a coast-to-coast parcel, it would have to weigh over two pounds to have the tax apply, so "covers" with the revenue stamp would be hard to find. B&W also briefly describe the tax on page 159 of the Revised Second Edition.
Cheers!
Lars
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Unfortunately I do not have the cover--but my wonderful (truly) mother-in-law mailed a check using an S&H green stamp--and it went through (at least it never came back, and the check was cashed...). Poor woman had really awful eyesight (cataracts back in the day when surgery was almost worse than the cataracts), but it's a favorite family story.
Roger
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two comments
Roger, i'm guessing the S&H stamps looked a lot like the 4c make-up stamp that is currently leader for ugliest stamp. Who could tell?
Lars, thanks for this. Another extraordinarily rare rate; thanks for taking the time to specify page and specifics of the rate.
David
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So, here are seals used where postage would be, but it's a legal use (mostly) because the cover is free-franked by a service member on active duty during war time.
War-time free franking was in use during the Second World War. The practice was in place at some during the First World War, but don't know the exact date. I'm not sure if it existed before this (Saleem, Arno, Thierry, can you help here?). Stamps were created specifically for soldiers during the First World War (the now-elusive AEF booklets). Federal soldiers were allowed to send their letters collect without penalty during the American Civil War.
This particular envelope is sent from Pier 45 on the North River, another name for the southern expanse of the Hudson, and if you subtract 40 from the pier number, the know the street from which the pier extends.
I understand Army markings much more than Naval markings, so here's where Charlie can help fill in some details, but it appears to be a seaman first class. I'd also be interested in knowing the meaning of FAO, outside of the toy store.
I'm both showing off and on a fishing expedition to fully understand the cover.
Finally, it's fairly rare to see seals used as blocks, and seals were commonly used more on the backs, not the fronts of envelopes, so this is a choice usage.
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Wow that's neat. Does the "75" at the bottom left mean anything? Price of the cover, something else?
Sally
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pretty sure that's a dealer's mark; likely 75c. Hey, I'd pay that.
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As I recall, FOA meant something about a Foreign Officer or Office, the A might be for Affairs. I do not know what the rules were for Free during WWII, but during the Viet Nam era you had to be outside the U.S. to get Free postage, and maybe even in the war zone. It has been a long time ago when I sent Free mail home. Navy pier in NY would not have applied at that time, but during WWII could have been anyone in the military??? I can only assume with the pending holiday season is what prompted the use of the seals. The cover is dated Dec 13th. What is really neat is that it was actually cancelled. I thought most free mail went un-cancelled, just delivered to addressee. I think I may still have some of the old Free envelopes I sent home. I will have to dig out and look.
But whatever, nice cover.
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thanks Dan. and, yes, find your old correspondence and keep it together and safe.
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11:34:09am
During Viet Nam you did have to be beyond a certain meridian and a member of the active military. Unless certain government officials assigned in country had access to the franking privilege.
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Charlie - I have no idea what the parameters were for sure. I remember there was a notice at the military PO to write "Free" where a stamp usually went. When the sign went down, I had to lick a stamp to send a letter. I was use to following orders and I just did what they told me and did not ask a lot of questions. Never thought I would be dealing with the same stuff 50 years later. Could have asked, but did not know what to ask back then. I know, it is the ole hindsight trick....Should have, Could have, etc. etc. What the hell, I was just a kid doing my service to the country.
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11:21:07pm
On the subject of "illegal uses", here's one for you. United Kingdom, 1975
Roy
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11:43:27pm
Reminds me of a letter I sent to a fellow SOR member I believe last year. I had given it to my Mum to post, she assumed there was a stamp on it and didn't look, just dumped it in the post box. He received the letter intact sans postage or franking!
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03:32:10am
In 1995 there was a discussion about the last stamp of the WW II series, specifically whether the planned mushroom cloud would offend the sensibilities of our, by then, loyal Japanese allies.
The decision was made to change the design to show President Truman in the White House announcing the "Unconditional Surrender" and thus the official end of WW II.
However some clever fellow decided to print small sheetlets of the original design and I recall sending away for a sheet or possibly two.
I think the cover is self-explanatory
One day some weeks later an envelope arrived with a note about needing legitimate postage.
My oldest son, who was a teenager then, had written a letter and, looking for a stamp, used the A-bomb label to carry the mail.
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This isn't an American cover, but since a Brit piece was posted above, I'll include it in this discussion. Here's a Canadian cover (sadly only the front of the envelope, but when I saw this I had to have it anyway) with an excise (revenue) stamp used as postage.
Last year I actually posted a letter to my sister using a 10¢ Canadian postage due stamp. Not only improper because it is postage due, but the postage due itself is now obsolete. It got through, but sadly, was not cancelled (like much of our postage these days) so the experiment was moot.
On another note, if I may play devils advocate for a second, the image that amsd posted on Sept 5 of the cover with the four 1943 Christmas seals, has anyone noticed how the slogan cancel is not actually tied to the cover? The lines run across the seals, but the slogan frame doesn't appear on the envelope itself either to the left or right of the block.
Just wondering.
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Interesting James, i had not noticed that before. i'll need to examine it more closely; perhaps look under the flap at the back of the front of the cover to see if there is another cancel underneath the seals.
David
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In a thread on the legal uses of priority and express mail stamps, we morphed into other illegal uses, and featured an illegal use of a battleship documentary stamp. Paid the correct rate, but wasn't legal as postage.
Herewith, a recent acquisition where a Christmas seal is used as postage.
The usage is especially nice on a number of counts. First is its illegal use. Second, a machine cancel ought to have caught its lack of phosphor and therefore the machine ought not to have been triggered. Third, the cover is to a local Lung Association, which are getting rarer and rarer. Finally, according to the most recent seal survey, this predates the current EKU by seven days.
All in all a nice find
David
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this post
re: Seals used as postage
Yes, it's items like that that ALMOST make me want to collect more covers! I've avoided the temptation, for the most part, but stuff like that is really appealing. Thanks for sharing!
Login to Like
this post
re: Seals used as postage
Hi David,
Nice item -- not to rain on the parade, but: did you check that it does not say "no postage required" under the seal? Given that it is a pre-printed business return envelope it is possible that return postage was guaranteed.
The machine cancel does not appear to orginate from a machine using tagging to face and cancel envelopes. I will double check though. Standard hand driven and electric machines of various makes and models, which all require manual facing of envelopes remained in use for a long time, even until present day (but you very rarely see anything but inkjets these days).
Arno
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Auctions
re: Seals used as postage
Arno, I did not look under the seal. All the other, similar covers I acquired (all from the same local lung assoc) were franked. That doesn't prove anything, of course.
wasn't the convention to include a notice near the address that indicates prepayment of postage? I don't recall only the boxed BRE indicum; only in tandem with the ovalesque statement about prepayment near the address. Or another of my old man hallucinations.
Lars, these are fascinating. Nothing like being viewed as a temptress (or its male equivalent). The dark side beckons.....lars...................lars......................
David
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Seals used as postage
and, why does reading something like
"not to rain on the parade, but:
"
cause my stomach to knot up instantaneously?
Login to Like
this post
re: Seals used as postage
Yes,
"not to rain on the parade, but:"
always makes for a great lead-in.
I am not sure if there had to be an additional mentioning of the fact that postage was guaranteed by the recipient. Perhaps you can sacrifice one of the other similar covers you have to find out for sure; but the fact that all the others were franked is a very good indicator that postage indeed was required. So, no rain on the parade after all.
Arno
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Seals used as postage
thanks Arno, I was despairing trying to find my umbrella
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this post
re: Seals used as postage
How about Postage used as Revenue ? Here is one on a Bank check.
Login to Like
this post
re: Seals used as postage
Another Postage Stamp used on document
Login to Like
this post
re: Seals used as postage
That is another interesting improper use I never thought about! This is really fascinating. It brings to mind something I read several years ago about a use during WWI for Parcel Post stamps to pay some special war tax. I don't recall the details at this point.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Seals used as postage
Lars, never heard of that; hope you can find details.
The war tax in America was simply an increase of major rates (letter and PC) by a penny (increasing by 1/3 and 1/2, respectively). This made sense because the USPOD was fully governmental, and its revenues flowed to Treasury, unlike today where only expenses incurred by USPS are sent to Treasury, but no funds are forthcoming.
David
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this post
re: Seals used as postage
David, it was a 1c tax for any Parcel Post package with 25c or more in postage. It was 1c for the first 25c and 1c for each additional portion thereof. I don't know if it was a postage stamp or a tax stamp. It was around 1918 or so.
Login to Like
this post
re: Seals used as postage
David,
When I got home I checked my notebook where I keep oddball info that I may wish to refer back to at some point and found these two items:
1. New York Times - Nov 29, 1917 - "{Tax} Collector William H. Edwards of the Second or Wall Street Internal Revenue District yesterday gave out a statement calling attention to the fact that the war stamp taxes on many transactions will become effective Saturday ... Revenue stamps will also have to be affixed to parcel post packages on which the postage amounts to 25 cents or more."
2. Official Bulletin - December 8, 1917 (A. M. Dockery, Third Assistant Postmaster General) has an article titled - "War Tax on Parcel-Post Mail Must Be Paid In Internal Revenue Stamps, Canceled By Sender". There you can find all of the particulars. (The revenue stamp was to be canceled in ink with date and initials by sender, similar to use on legal documents. Perhaps a Revenue collector has an example).
According to Beecher & Wawrukiewicz, even for a coast-to-coast parcel, it would have to weigh over two pounds to have the tax apply, so "covers" with the revenue stamp would be hard to find. B&W also briefly describe the tax on page 159 of the Revised Second Edition.
Cheers!
Lars
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this post
re: Seals used as postage
Unfortunately I do not have the cover--but my wonderful (truly) mother-in-law mailed a check using an S&H green stamp--and it went through (at least it never came back, and the check was cashed...). Poor woman had really awful eyesight (cataracts back in the day when surgery was almost worse than the cataracts), but it's a favorite family story.
Roger
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this post
Auctions
re: Seals used as postage
two comments
Roger, i'm guessing the S&H stamps looked a lot like the 4c make-up stamp that is currently leader for ugliest stamp. Who could tell?
Lars, thanks for this. Another extraordinarily rare rate; thanks for taking the time to specify page and specifics of the rate.
David
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Auctions
re: Seals used as postage
So, here are seals used where postage would be, but it's a legal use (mostly) because the cover is free-franked by a service member on active duty during war time.
War-time free franking was in use during the Second World War. The practice was in place at some during the First World War, but don't know the exact date. I'm not sure if it existed before this (Saleem, Arno, Thierry, can you help here?). Stamps were created specifically for soldiers during the First World War (the now-elusive AEF booklets). Federal soldiers were allowed to send their letters collect without penalty during the American Civil War.
This particular envelope is sent from Pier 45 on the North River, another name for the southern expanse of the Hudson, and if you subtract 40 from the pier number, the know the street from which the pier extends.
I understand Army markings much more than Naval markings, so here's where Charlie can help fill in some details, but it appears to be a seaman first class. I'd also be interested in knowing the meaning of FAO, outside of the toy store.
I'm both showing off and on a fishing expedition to fully understand the cover.
Finally, it's fairly rare to see seals used as blocks, and seals were commonly used more on the backs, not the fronts of envelopes, so this is a choice usage.
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re: Seals used as postage
Wow that's neat. Does the "75" at the bottom left mean anything? Price of the cover, something else?
Sally
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Auctions
re: Seals used as postage
pretty sure that's a dealer's mark; likely 75c. Hey, I'd pay that.
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re: Seals used as postage
As I recall, FOA meant something about a Foreign Officer or Office, the A might be for Affairs. I do not know what the rules were for Free during WWII, but during the Viet Nam era you had to be outside the U.S. to get Free postage, and maybe even in the war zone. It has been a long time ago when I sent Free mail home. Navy pier in NY would not have applied at that time, but during WWII could have been anyone in the military??? I can only assume with the pending holiday season is what prompted the use of the seals. The cover is dated Dec 13th. What is really neat is that it was actually cancelled. I thought most free mail went un-cancelled, just delivered to addressee. I think I may still have some of the old Free envelopes I sent home. I will have to dig out and look.
But whatever, nice cover.
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re: Seals used as postage
thanks Dan. and, yes, find your old correspondence and keep it together and safe.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
06 Sep 2013
11:34:09am
re: Seals used as postage
During Viet Nam you did have to be beyond a certain meridian and a member of the active military. Unless certain government officials assigned in country had access to the franking privilege.
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re: Seals used as postage
Charlie - I have no idea what the parameters were for sure. I remember there was a notice at the military PO to write "Free" where a stamp usually went. When the sign went down, I had to lick a stamp to send a letter. I was use to following orders and I just did what they told me and did not ask a lot of questions. Never thought I would be dealing with the same stuff 50 years later. Could have asked, but did not know what to ask back then. I know, it is the ole hindsight trick....Should have, Could have, etc. etc. What the hell, I was just a kid doing my service to the country.
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 300 categories
07 Sep 2013
11:21:07pm
re: Seals used as postage
On the subject of "illegal uses", here's one for you. United Kingdom, 1975
Roy
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
07 Sep 2013
11:43:27pm
re: Seals used as postage
Reminds me of a letter I sent to a fellow SOR member I believe last year. I had given it to my Mum to post, she assumed there was a stamp on it and didn't look, just dumped it in the post box. He received the letter intact sans postage or franking!
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
12 Sep 2013
03:32:10am
re: Seals used as postage
In 1995 there was a discussion about the last stamp of the WW II series, specifically whether the planned mushroom cloud would offend the sensibilities of our, by then, loyal Japanese allies.
The decision was made to change the design to show President Truman in the White House announcing the "Unconditional Surrender" and thus the official end of WW II.
However some clever fellow decided to print small sheetlets of the original design and I recall sending away for a sheet or possibly two.
I think the cover is self-explanatory
One day some weeks later an envelope arrived with a note about needing legitimate postage.
My oldest son, who was a teenager then, had written a letter and, looking for a stamp, used the A-bomb label to carry the mail.
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09:33:01pm
re: Seals used as postage
This isn't an American cover, but since a Brit piece was posted above, I'll include it in this discussion. Here's a Canadian cover (sadly only the front of the envelope, but when I saw this I had to have it anyway) with an excise (revenue) stamp used as postage.
Last year I actually posted a letter to my sister using a 10¢ Canadian postage due stamp. Not only improper because it is postage due, but the postage due itself is now obsolete. It got through, but sadly, was not cancelled (like much of our postage these days) so the experiment was moot.
On another note, if I may play devils advocate for a second, the image that amsd posted on Sept 5 of the cover with the four 1943 Christmas seals, has anyone noticed how the slogan cancel is not actually tied to the cover? The lines run across the seals, but the slogan frame doesn't appear on the envelope itself either to the left or right of the block.
Just wondering.
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re: Seals used as postage
Interesting James, i had not noticed that before. i'll need to examine it more closely; perhaps look under the flap at the back of the front of the cover to see if there is another cancel underneath the seals.
David
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