Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Phil
you won't find it in Scott because it's not a Christmas seal; it's some sort of Christmas label. Looks quite like the many Santa Claus post labels issued by Dennison, but, if it is, it's unlisted (not impossible, but not likely).
it could fit into the auction, though
David
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"you won't find it in Scott because it's not a Christmas seal"
I think this is USA Philatelic terminology at it's worst !!
Because it's not in the Scott specialized it's not a seal ?? That means that 99% of all seals are called labels in the USA ??
I learned something new. I have (almost) never heard a seal called a label by someone in the know. I have hundreds of seals, maybe thousands that are not listed in catalogues (that I know of) but by the nature of what they are, are Seals.
When I was a child, I remember various organizations calling at our door throughout December to sell us their Christmas seals, just as I remember receiving many Christmas cards with lovely seals on the envelope flap. It was part and parcel of Christmas.
Unless Phil's cover is sporting a common supermarket Christmas sticker (unlikely given they didn't exist in those days) then it is most definitely a Christmas Seal.
Or is the USA terminology so different ?
Londonbus1
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05:18:00am
A Christmas seal or Easter seal is designed as a symbol of charitable giving and, while not everyone who uses them gives, its purpose is to display support for the underlying cause (tuberculosis, polio, children's diseases, etc.). A label (albeit a pretty and well designed one) is just a label, usually given away as promotional fodder by commercial enterprises to promote their product or, occasionally, just as a token of goodwill. A label has no connection with charitable causes.
I think what David is saying, and I agree with his assessment, is that the item in question appears to be a label as opposed to a seal. I do not believe he asserts that such have to be listed in Scott's to be called a "seal."
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i wish i were in the know, Micheal, but i'm just a lowly collector living among the last, lonely 1%.
There are many things not in Scott that are seals; the definition that i have used is similar to Bobby's and requires that the seal be designed as part of charitable giving, hence MY inclusion of Easter seals among the recipients of that appellation (I hesitate to use the word label describing a name, fearing i'll confuse an already contentious issue) even though Easter seals are not listed in Scott.
The label that Phil showcased clearly falls under the Christmas umbrella, but is not, as far as I can tell, part of any charitable effort. I could be wrong. It is more likely, as I said in my initial response, a label like those produced by Dennison, which, while not distributed in supermarkets, were distributed in department stores, and their heyday predates Phil's 1919 usage. Most Dennison labels were produced in early- and mid-teens, and Santa-esque labels exist as far back as 1882. They were strictly commercial labels, not seals, which were enjoying their hayday at the same time.
You might find it interesting that names matter; currently ALA (which issues Christmas seals) is proactively defending its trademark of that very name (although they are merely the latest issuer of said seals).
So, we've tangled before about Cinderella nomenclature, and it seemed inconsequential. But here, unless this is really differences between how the US and rest of world discuss seals and labels, nomenclature does matter.
Finally, the Christmas Seal and Charity Stamp Society uses "seal" in the same way I do. You may wish to discount their view, but it would seem a society that studies this very thing might have some weight in the matter.
David
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Most of the "labels" or cinderellas that do not fall under the nomenclature of "seals" are also properly termed "poster stamps" and that would seem to fit this item. I know that within the world of cinderellas that terms are not uniform. Personally, when I think of "seal" I think of charitable organizations, e.g. TB, Easter seals, Boys Town, various church organizations, etc; poster stamps is the term I use to cover everything else (except for etiquettes, of course).
Roger
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This could be some form of a Local Xmas Seal issue. Postmarked from NY could be any number of groups or individuals looking to cash in. The original Xmas seals were attributed to Emily Bissell and were earmarked for TB research and treatment. These started in 1907. After the success of the Xmas seals, all kinds of groups got on the bandwagon. But many were not associated to TB in any way and were just looking for $$$$. Later became the Easter Seals for crippled children, and groups like Boys Town, that all issued sheets of labels looking for donations. So, enough of the education.
This particular seal on Philips cover does not show up in any of my catalogs, or Green's. It does not have any reference to any organization, which you would expect if they were seeking donations, and just appears to be some kind of a seal in the spirit of the season.
The debate over label versus seal should be addressed in another thread. This thread should try to answer Philips question.
My opinion is that it is a nice Post Card with an unusual seal with what appears to be an offset printed 1 cent Washington stamp postmarked 1919 from NY and send across the river to New Jersey and not with any accredited Xmas seal. The seal is more colorful than the franked stamp and that is what gets your attention.
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I saw in another thread that Michael (our Londonbus) subscribes to Cinderella Philately. I occasionally read an issue or two if passed my way.
I am going through three of them this week, and I noted that they never use the word seal, except in connection with a charity issue. Now, this is only three issues, so this may be localized usage in a short time, but when looking at the description on their website, http://www.cinderellastampclub.org.uk/what.html, it seems they reserve "seal" usage here, too, to charity issues, using "stamps" to cover other issues that have fiscal or franking power of one sort or another and "label" to describe those things that are neither stamps nor seals, but more likely to be strictly promotional, especially in conjunction with exhibitions and the like. Common terminology seems to keep "poster stamps" as stamps, although the usage I just described seems as if it might be better termed poster labels.
Still, my comment here is primarily about "seals," where another organization, the Cinderella Stamp Club, this one based in the UK, unlike CS&CSS, which is US-based, tends to distinguish seals from stamps and labels.
David
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(Modified by Moderator on 2013-09-24 11:49:18)
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re: 1919 postcard with Christmas seal...did not see the seal in the Scott Specialized !
Phil
you won't find it in Scott because it's not a Christmas seal; it's some sort of Christmas label. Looks quite like the many Santa Claus post labels issued by Dennison, but, if it is, it's unlisted (not impossible, but not likely).
it could fit into the auction, though
David
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re: 1919 postcard with Christmas seal...did not see the seal in the Scott Specialized !
"you won't find it in Scott because it's not a Christmas seal"
I think this is USA Philatelic terminology at it's worst !!
Because it's not in the Scott specialized it's not a seal ?? That means that 99% of all seals are called labels in the USA ??
I learned something new. I have (almost) never heard a seal called a label by someone in the know. I have hundreds of seals, maybe thousands that are not listed in catalogues (that I know of) but by the nature of what they are, are Seals.
When I was a child, I remember various organizations calling at our door throughout December to sell us their Christmas seals, just as I remember receiving many Christmas cards with lovely seals on the envelope flap. It was part and parcel of Christmas.
Unless Phil's cover is sporting a common supermarket Christmas sticker (unlikely given they didn't exist in those days) then it is most definitely a Christmas Seal.
Or is the USA terminology so different ?
Londonbus1
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
09 Sep 2013
05:18:00am
re: 1919 postcard with Christmas seal...did not see the seal in the Scott Specialized !
A Christmas seal or Easter seal is designed as a symbol of charitable giving and, while not everyone who uses them gives, its purpose is to display support for the underlying cause (tuberculosis, polio, children's diseases, etc.). A label (albeit a pretty and well designed one) is just a label, usually given away as promotional fodder by commercial enterprises to promote their product or, occasionally, just as a token of goodwill. A label has no connection with charitable causes.
I think what David is saying, and I agree with his assessment, is that the item in question appears to be a label as opposed to a seal. I do not believe he asserts that such have to be listed in Scott's to be called a "seal."
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Auctions
re: 1919 postcard with Christmas seal...did not see the seal in the Scott Specialized !
i wish i were in the know, Micheal, but i'm just a lowly collector living among the last, lonely 1%.
There are many things not in Scott that are seals; the definition that i have used is similar to Bobby's and requires that the seal be designed as part of charitable giving, hence MY inclusion of Easter seals among the recipients of that appellation (I hesitate to use the word label describing a name, fearing i'll confuse an already contentious issue) even though Easter seals are not listed in Scott.
The label that Phil showcased clearly falls under the Christmas umbrella, but is not, as far as I can tell, part of any charitable effort. I could be wrong. It is more likely, as I said in my initial response, a label like those produced by Dennison, which, while not distributed in supermarkets, were distributed in department stores, and their heyday predates Phil's 1919 usage. Most Dennison labels were produced in early- and mid-teens, and Santa-esque labels exist as far back as 1882. They were strictly commercial labels, not seals, which were enjoying their hayday at the same time.
You might find it interesting that names matter; currently ALA (which issues Christmas seals) is proactively defending its trademark of that very name (although they are merely the latest issuer of said seals).
So, we've tangled before about Cinderella nomenclature, and it seemed inconsequential. But here, unless this is really differences between how the US and rest of world discuss seals and labels, nomenclature does matter.
Finally, the Christmas Seal and Charity Stamp Society uses "seal" in the same way I do. You may wish to discount their view, but it would seem a society that studies this very thing might have some weight in the matter.
David
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re: 1919 postcard with Christmas seal...did not see the seal in the Scott Specialized !
Most of the "labels" or cinderellas that do not fall under the nomenclature of "seals" are also properly termed "poster stamps" and that would seem to fit this item. I know that within the world of cinderellas that terms are not uniform. Personally, when I think of "seal" I think of charitable organizations, e.g. TB, Easter seals, Boys Town, various church organizations, etc; poster stamps is the term I use to cover everything else (except for etiquettes, of course).
Roger
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re: 1919 postcard with Christmas seal...did not see the seal in the Scott Specialized !
This could be some form of a Local Xmas Seal issue. Postmarked from NY could be any number of groups or individuals looking to cash in. The original Xmas seals were attributed to Emily Bissell and were earmarked for TB research and treatment. These started in 1907. After the success of the Xmas seals, all kinds of groups got on the bandwagon. But many were not associated to TB in any way and were just looking for $$$$. Later became the Easter Seals for crippled children, and groups like Boys Town, that all issued sheets of labels looking for donations. So, enough of the education.
This particular seal on Philips cover does not show up in any of my catalogs, or Green's. It does not have any reference to any organization, which you would expect if they were seeking donations, and just appears to be some kind of a seal in the spirit of the season.
The debate over label versus seal should be addressed in another thread. This thread should try to answer Philips question.
My opinion is that it is a nice Post Card with an unusual seal with what appears to be an offset printed 1 cent Washington stamp postmarked 1919 from NY and send across the river to New Jersey and not with any accredited Xmas seal. The seal is more colorful than the franked stamp and that is what gets your attention.
Login to Like
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Auctions
re: 1919 postcard with Christmas seal...did not see the seal in the Scott Specialized !
I saw in another thread that Michael (our Londonbus) subscribes to Cinderella Philately. I occasionally read an issue or two if passed my way.
I am going through three of them this week, and I noted that they never use the word seal, except in connection with a charity issue. Now, this is only three issues, so this may be localized usage in a short time, but when looking at the description on their website, http://www.cinderellastampclub.org.uk/what.html, it seems they reserve "seal" usage here, too, to charity issues, using "stamps" to cover other issues that have fiscal or franking power of one sort or another and "label" to describe those things that are neither stamps nor seals, but more likely to be strictly promotional, especially in conjunction with exhibitions and the like. Common terminology seems to keep "poster stamps" as stamps, although the usage I just described seems as if it might be better termed poster labels.
Still, my comment here is primarily about "seals," where another organization, the Cinderella Stamp Club, this one based in the UK, unlike CS&CSS, which is US-based, tends to distinguish seals from stamps and labels.
David
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(Modified by Moderator on 2013-09-24 11:49:18)
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