Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
We turned the discussion to Philatelic concerns. The dealer bemoaned the fact that most of his stamp customers were in the late 60's and many of them were not buying but selling to him. He said he keeps offering less and less money, but they still are very willing to accept his offer. He then pointed to the piles and piles of used stamp albums and stamps that he sells at catalogue no matter what the condition and supplies that are far higher than you can buy on line.
Then he predicts that the hobby of stamp collecting will die in 6 years along with us older collectors. Each month I make it a point to review the applications to APS and note that there are a lot of us old folks who are joining and not many youngsters. Is that a sign of our times when kids are more interested in surfing the internet than forming stamp collections? Or is there something else afoot?
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Les,
IMHO the problem with the future of collecting US is the impossibility for kids to find very many used commemorative stamps in the incoming household mail, combined with the proliferation of new issues. In other words, young collectors aren't likely to see many commemoratives on the meager amount of incoming mail that actually has a stamp, so they are not likely to see a very high percentage of each year's commemoratives in the mailstream. That, in turn, makes collecting unattractive.
When those collectors in their late 60's you mentioned started collecting as kids, it was likely in the mid-1950's. You only needed a network of a few friends to keep an eye on incoming mail and do some swapping to keep up with a collection of used stamps back then, so stamp collecting was a rewarding hobby.
I house my US collection on White Ace pages in White Ace binders, and I store Commemoratives separate from Definitives, Airmail and BOB. Commemorative album #1 (COM1) consists of 1893-1949. Over 50 years of commemorative stamps! COM2 is 1950-1969 (20 years). COM3 is 1970-1979 (10 years). COM4 is 1980-1986 (7 years). COM5 is 1987-1991 (5 years). After that, every album is 3 or 4 years of Commemoratives. That's all that will fit!
My 9-year-old has no interest in stamps or coins. My 7-year-old has started his coin collection and his 10-year-old cousin and 14-year-old cousin also have coin collections. They can find coins in circulation, and finding a coin issued 5 years ago is not a huge challenge. They might even find a really old coin on occasion. Good luck with that with stamps.
I doubt my kids will EVER be interested in collecting US stamps, so I plan to end my collection at 2016 with the next stamp expo in the US. I will still work on older issues, so I'm not giving up philately, but the number of new issues pumped out since 1980 or so has been a nail in the coffin for collecting US, IMHO.
I do plan to spend more time in numismatics because kids DO go there for a hobby. Don't blame "surfing the Internet" as the culprit. I have two boys and they have two male cousins. Three of the 4 collect coins. ZERO collect stamps in spite of my obvious interest in stamps. Stamp collecting, not the kids, is the problem.
One area where I see potential for my kids, anyway, is topical collecting. They could learn about a topic AND geography at the same time! So stamp collecting isn't dead or dying, but it is morphing. As governments abuse stamp collectors more and more with new issues, we will adapt and modify our parameters to fit OUR needs. At least I will.
Cheers!
Lars
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I am definantaly the only person my age (31) I know that collects stamps. I think most people are too busy. I find that most people have little time between work, kids, facebook, cell phones to do anything let alone a very time consuming and finicky hobby like stamp collection. People often ask me why I do it. When they ask how much stamps are worth and I say 5 cents for most stamps they ask me why I bother. People just don't see it as productive (a chance to make money) and therefor they don't think it is worth their time. I am not sure if the hobby is dead, I think it is probably more of a cyclical thing. We just live in such a fast paced world that most people are much to distracted to sit down and do anything that takes time. I think another factor is that collectors are burnt out after the 90 where we collected everything from dolls to hockeycards to comic books. Ultimately I think collectors will always come back to stamps because they are so perfect for collecting. But for now the collections that were made up in the 90s have a lot of people distracted. Fast paced society just doesn't allow most people the time.
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I am very pessimistic about the future of the hobby, so if you're looking for a rallying cry and balm of hope in the future of the next generations picking it up, don't read on.
It seems to me that most of older collectors (and I include myself, at the cusp of 60, in that group), collected in this pattern in their lifetime: We started collecting as kids because our parents, grandparents, or other relatives collected; our friends collected for the same reason, and that was how we socialized, trading, admiring items, etc.; and as Lars pointed out, there was the intrigue of getting interesting stamped mail. We then hit our teens to 30s and put away the collections for the most part, until in our 40s/50s when we resurrected the hobby.
While we were being a philatelic Rip Van Winkle, the generation being raised during this time didn't have the active role models we had; had friends who were no longer collecting; and mail became increasingly boring, with metered envelopes and bills dominating the daily delivery. As this generation grew up, we were their children's philatelic role models, older uncles, aunts, and grandparents, and their social world changed completely with the boom in electronic interests (read: distracting bright shiny objects) and social media sites. Now kids don't start with the excited anticipation of interesting mail; they have an exciting world of gaming, surfing, and what not on their phone, tablets, computers, etc.
I would be surprised if the hobby survives another decade, but I'm not optimistic it will. The question isn't whether stamp collecting will die, but when and what will happen to all those collections? As dealer/collectors disappear too, it will be at the auction houses where these albums, stock books, boxes of philatelic material get dumped. Prices will fall as fewer bid, and the market will shrink for the remaining burgeoning stock. Common issues deemed of "no value" by some alleged market authority, will be chucked; you can only donate so much to Scout troops, schools projects, and creative artists.
So enjoy your hobby for yourself, and consider educating your next generations about the value of your collection as a family heirloom, not a source of money in the future.
Peter
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Ah Peter,
Your words make logical sense, and your outlook a distinct possibility. There is the counter argument that as our leisure time grows, so will interest in collecting/art/hobbies etc. Your advice is certainly sound. Pardon me while I slit my throat!!
Dan C.
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I've learned to think in half-decade increments. Any larger spans will fail to anticipate new communication vehicles and new approaches to interaction. The iPad is a mere half-decade old but has revolutionized computing. I say this so that when I reply, I remember that thinking beyond that 5-year horizon is fraught with more unknowables than Rumsfeld could shake a stick at.
In the near-term, philately IS changing, but not necessarily dying. Comparing it to BB cards or coins helpful only to the point where we see what we might steal from them and understand their successes and failures and see how we might employ or avoid them.
Philately's strength comes from its adaptability to the interests of its participants. Where else does one see "collect how you want, what you want," and have a quazillion options. I have started and abandoned a score of major philatelic endeavors, with 50 minor ones in there as well.
That breadth of possibility leads to great health, both for the accumulator and the scholar; the one-of-a-kind collector and the ones who thrive on depth to see differences.
I just hit 60 and among the youngest in my club; but the collectors there are vibrant. And we can all look in SOR's mirror and see a healthy constituency.
I do think that some of the problems noted here are obstacles unlikely to be overcome: stamps aren't seen any more, despite their continued rabbit-like numbers. This both misses the kids who might have been attracted by the Toy Story and Shrek candy and the one-of-a-kind guy who throws up his hands instead of forking over his wallet. Still, there's lots to explore, and the internet provides entree for anyone willing to ask. Just look at the amazing outporing of expertise and generosity from our members: ask a question or need some stamps.... pooooof! people respond.
Anyway, i see no problem in the next 5 years, although our numbers might shrink. I think you'll see what Lars noted: each of us defines the limits of our collections. We'll see if we can add to our ranks.
David
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Happy Birthday David, i hope Dan does not slit his own throat..ugh,,pints of blood,as far as i am concerned Italians are not prone to suicide..live evolves but goes on !
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This topic has been beat to death on many a forum. The Hobby is dead- The Hobby is dead. Yet demand in quality items and prices increase almost every year. The hobby is not dead it is just taking a different path than most older collectors have traveled including myself. I do see in the future that higher value and grade of stamps will be more of a corporate investment as Art has become. I also see hobby becoming more of a topical society as this area of collecting has grown 10 fold compared to the standard form of filling album pages. Just my 2 cents.
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If you back into the philatelic press around 100 years ago, you will find articles and letters to the editors where people are bemoaning the demise of the hobby. Look at all the collecting "fads" that have come and gone over the decades. Philately is still here, and remains.
By the way, one can see the same type of discussions in most of the hobby "mainstream" hobbies as well, doll collecting, model railroading, etc. Those hobbies are still here as well.
Better time spent working on our hobbies and sharing them with others.
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@Dan:
There is no need to do anything remotely close to that; my point is, each person should enjoy their collections for what they are, our pastime and enjoyable hobby. We tend to get caught up in the thought that no-one else in our families have the remotest interest in what we have, beyond perhaps an avaricious thought of inheriting a fortune. It doesn't matter; if stamp collecting "dies" then it dies. But for the individual collector, it will still be alive. Consider the owners of Beannie Babies. Absolutely no market for them now, so you end up with two groups of people: One group, that decries the "loss of investment" and how no-one else wants the "toys", and the other, that pull out their stuffed toys now and again and enjoy them. Which camp do you want to be in? I choose the latter. And I'll keep my throat intact, because I won't get depressed thinking like the former.
@Ross:
Yes, the topic has been beaten to ... well, death! But I did not ring the death knell for the hobby's demise; I said it WILL die, that, to me, is inevitable. Maybe in a decade, or two, but eventually, it will, as will baseball cards, postcards, etc. Coins are more stable; currency is part of our cultures and besides, you can melt some coins for their inherent metal worth. Burn a stamp, postcard, baseball card, or Beannie Baby and you get ... nada. These only have value in the eyes of the collector, ultimately. So enjoy and fully participate.
It's a more hopeful message than I think I conveyed earlier.
Peter
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O.K.Peter, I'm feeling better now. I just don't know what to do with all the knives I was sent!!
All good thoughts,
Dan C.
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I am sad to hear that stamp collecting is dead...what are the stats on coin collecting,postcard collecting and ephemera ? I may need something to fall back on !
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i hope that cover collecting does not slip away during the night..for Roys sake !
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Dan, believe it or not, at one time I collected knives! LOL! Nothing fancy, just variations. I lost most of them during one ill-fated move across the country; I'm certain the moving company purposefully misplaced that one box. (they didn't take the stamps; what does that tell you?)
Phil, diversify your collecting portfolio; it isn't just good advice for retirement plans or stock market holdings. The trouble is, I have so many smaller areas of collecting they (1) take up all my available time from stamps, my first love, and (2) I can't get beyond that stage for them, if anything because of cost. My latest thing is some King and Country miniatures. Stop the madness!
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cocollectibles, when i left home to go in the service at 19 i had an army of British made toy soldiers..Indian lancers, guys with bearskin hats, Scots etc;. i had a cartridge collection it was fairly easy to get black powder cartridges and changeovers back then. what i really miss the most were my "Tales From the Crypt" comic books from the 1950's . Talk about realism. well anyway 4 years later no one had lost or broken my stamp collection. I stick with the stamps and covers !
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Looking down my corridor, the end of which is indiscernable and unlit,
I believe the future will take care of itself and all things in it.
Money-collecting, and in particular coins, seems to be sharing a fate
dissimilar to stamp collecting: hard currency production is shrinking and,
from what I read, is predicted soon (?) to be rarely used as other forms of
electronic currency and payment materialize.
My guess is that stamp collecting will always be a subset of human
activity.
Personally, I feel no compunction to recruit participants
to our hobby.
John Derry
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If i do any reading its history related or about stamps...i believe there will always be some folks interested in history and stamps. It won't be like the 1930s to 1950s..But there will always be some of us oddballs going against the wind !
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Frankly, I'm encouraged by the notes of optimism expressed here! I sincerely hope you are all correct.
Cheers to all,
Peter
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I've heard this same story about model train collecting, well, we're still here too! The unfortunate thing about model trains is they use hundreds of times more space than stamps. I may have a lot more stamps than models but the cost of the toy is based on the budget of the collector. My family is more worried about my train collection than the stamps, albeit pretty close to the same value. Stamps I've convinced them is a heirlom, trains were an enjoyable outlet of fun and education and who can put a price on that? When I'm gone, oh well, not my problem...to the delight of whoever gets the stuff.
I would hate to see stamp collecting disappear, it's been loads of fun and I put it away years ago while raising the family I can put it aside for future generations as everything comes and goes in life. Perry
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Didn't the hot rods and roadsters go out of fashion for a while ? Now when they have classic and hot rod shows twice a year at the Rhinebeck fairgrounds..people seem willing to pay a high price (to me) for a weekend ticket.
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Obviously you will see a roller-coaster pattern for most collectibles (and precious metals to boot)! Stamp collecting won't "die", and if interest wanes, prices will decline to the point that new or re-invigorated buyers step in. Free-market principles will keep things afloat through the Second Bureau (US), but after that there is a lot of "stuff" that might not be worth more that 75% of face mint. Especially the water-activated stamps from the '70s to the '90s.
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Well, I finally started something on the discussion board that got a lot of attention. Pardon me, while I break my arm patting myself on the back. I haven't read every post, yet.
I did not publicly disagree with my dealer friend, but I do feel that the reported demise of the hobby is a bit premature. The impression that I am drawing from reading Linn's is that the marketing executives in USPS Headquarters are encouraging the production of new stamps (Harry Potter) in hopes of increasing the interest in the hobby. Their theory is that stamps are a free revenue source. In my opinion, that kind of thinking is more appropriate to the Banana Republics, Former Communist States, and other nations who issued stamps not to carry the mail but to sell to collectors.
My dealer is trying to make a living on Numismatics by buying and selling coins. Given the relatively recent drop in metal prices, he has a sour taste in his mouth. He has pretty much given up on Philately. The real economics in stamp collecting always seemed to be in albums, mounts, hinges, accessories, and catalogs. H.E. Harris did not sell a bag of a thousand stamps for a dollar to sell stamps. He sold the bag to sell the albums, hinges, crystal mounts, glassine envelopes, and other things thought to be essential to the hobby.
I am not sure that the number of serious collectors relative to the population has really changed all that much. In fact, the internet with the concomitant increase in online sources for stamps may actually increase the number of collectors. I have noted an substantial increase in the number of visitors here. I also bet that our membership has increased since it is free to join.
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Hey Dan,
I have some really old but nice Barlow's and few newer Case's if you need them. Good for whittling, but not much good for slitting throats.
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Perhaps we were talking about stamp collecting in the U.S. Stamp collecting from what i observe is still popular in Canada,Western Europe and Asia.
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I have read that collecting in Asia is taking off tremendously.
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I'm optimistic about the hobby from my viewpoint, which is being able to acquire decent stamps at cheaper and cheaper prices. I'm pessimistic my stamps will be worth less than the bargain prices I am paying now.
But I wouldn't put much stock in the viewpoint of a brick and mortar dealer. As you said:
"He then pointed to the piles and piles of used stamp albums and stamps that he sells at catalogue no matter what the condition and supplies that are far higher than you can buy on line."
The reason the dealer sees only older folks at his store is they are the only ones willing to pay his prices, which are not competitive with the online venues the "younger" collectors are using. I've gone to retail establishments like this, where the dealer bemoans the lack of interest in his stamps and complains how he can't even get his own children to take an interest in the mountains of philatelic inventory he has. Mention the word "ebay" and these dealers turn red with anger. I won't shop there for stamps as they are just too expensive. On occasion I buy supplies from certain dealers just because its convenient.
The dealers that have internet store-fronts as well, such as Potomac Supplies, seem to have more competitive prices. Potomac Supplies is an exception I'll just mention them because I like them - they've been very helpful and I buy supplies from their brick and mortar store sometimes.
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This dealer does or did sell on eBay. And when I said that he sells at catalogue, that is what he marks on his inventory cards. Like most dealers today when he sell bulk lots, I really think that he is trying to get what he paid for the lot out of the sale. Some of his early bulk foreign collections show a bit of promise, but I am not willing to pay his asking price because I just do not have the interest in acquiring foreign stamps.
However, he is not just a brick and mortar dealer. He is aware of the technology and its impact on the market. It is difficult to tell the age of an eBay buyer. Many dealers are angry with eBay because they see inexpensive common stamps offered as more expensive varieties with low ball prices. Most reputable dealers are members of ASDA and APS and can suffer serious repercussions if they do that.
In my opinion, most of the stamp sales on eBay by private individuals go to "dealers" looking to re market the stamp at a higher price. A very reputable dealer told me that he would lose money if he sold anything on eBay for less than $2.00. Either the seller does not know what they are offering or they are deliberately pricing it below market to get rid of the stamp. I am not sure that eBay or any of the on line services is the place to estimate the true retail value of a stamp.
It is worth discussing since that the falling retail value seems to be the primary reason many think the hobby is dying. If retail values fall significantly then dealers can no longer remarket older stamps.
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"I am not sure that eBay or any of the on line services is the place to estimate the true retail value of a stamp."
As far as I'm concerned that IS the market (but maybe not for highly valued stamps). The fact that catalogs do not consider it the market may be part of the perception problem: the gulf between what people expect their stamps are worth and what they actually sell for. My viewpoint may be clouded because I have mainly purchased collections up to this point and those were regularly selling for less than 10% of CV, even taking into account the mixed quality. (But those collections typically don't have the highly valued stamps). But when collectors turn to buying collections from Ebay at wholesale prices rather than individual stamps from dealers at "retail" because its a much better deal, that is troublesome for traditional dealers I would think. It probably also indicates there is too much supply (of low to medium value stamps - it still seems hard to find the high value material).
Maybe the dealers that are in trouble are those invested in low to medium value stamps, which are losing value, as opposed to the rarer items, which are retaining value.
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I noticed an interesting fact today. If you factor inflation into the equation and purchased a US 1 mint copy in 1980 at full catalog, you would have paid over $8000 in today's dollars. Compare that with $ 3000 full catalog value in 2011. A classic stamp has not even kept pace with inflation.
My full set of Zeps are worth much less than I paid for them.
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03:00:30am
I assume you are referring to Scott's guestimates, Les.
I am thinking that during those thirty years didn't Scott do a massive revision in their pricing strategy at least once ?
My forgetter is getting better all the time but I seem to recall a great amount of pricing turmoil in the '80s which might make it near impossible to draw such a comparison.
It would be better to use the bid and asked prices of the day and compare them to a similar bid and asked source today.
According to an annual listing of the Consumer Price Index, which as you may suspect I keep on the small end table adjacent to my bed, an item that cost $0.82 and 4/10ths cents in 1980, was at $2.29 and 8/10ths at the end of 2012 despite, or perhaps as a result of, the recent recession that almost destroyed the country.
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Yesterday, I escorted a British friend of mine to a dealer's place of business. This dealer started as a stamp collector, but sold most of his collection to finance his entry into coins as well as stamps. I have a small collection of Morgan dollars and the dealer immediately started to sell his silver to me. My British friend who comes to the states very frequently was looking for gold Sovereigns and had little interest in silver or US bullion since he did not want to pay the high duties to bring it back to the UK.
We turned the discussion to Philatelic concerns. The dealer bemoaned the fact that most of his stamp customers were in the late 60's and many of them were not buying but selling to him. He said he keeps offering less and less money, but they still are very willing to accept his offer. He then pointed to the piles and piles of used stamp albums and stamps that he sells at catalogue no matter what the condition and supplies that are far higher than you can buy on line.
Then he predicts that the hobby of stamp collecting will die in 6 years along with us older collectors. Each month I make it a point to review the applications to APS and note that there are a lot of us old folks who are joining and not many youngsters. Is that a sign of our times when kids are more interested in surfing the internet than forming stamp collections? Or is there something else afoot?
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re: Death of the Hobby
Les,
IMHO the problem with the future of collecting US is the impossibility for kids to find very many used commemorative stamps in the incoming household mail, combined with the proliferation of new issues. In other words, young collectors aren't likely to see many commemoratives on the meager amount of incoming mail that actually has a stamp, so they are not likely to see a very high percentage of each year's commemoratives in the mailstream. That, in turn, makes collecting unattractive.
When those collectors in their late 60's you mentioned started collecting as kids, it was likely in the mid-1950's. You only needed a network of a few friends to keep an eye on incoming mail and do some swapping to keep up with a collection of used stamps back then, so stamp collecting was a rewarding hobby.
I house my US collection on White Ace pages in White Ace binders, and I store Commemoratives separate from Definitives, Airmail and BOB. Commemorative album #1 (COM1) consists of 1893-1949. Over 50 years of commemorative stamps! COM2 is 1950-1969 (20 years). COM3 is 1970-1979 (10 years). COM4 is 1980-1986 (7 years). COM5 is 1987-1991 (5 years). After that, every album is 3 or 4 years of Commemoratives. That's all that will fit!
My 9-year-old has no interest in stamps or coins. My 7-year-old has started his coin collection and his 10-year-old cousin and 14-year-old cousin also have coin collections. They can find coins in circulation, and finding a coin issued 5 years ago is not a huge challenge. They might even find a really old coin on occasion. Good luck with that with stamps.
I doubt my kids will EVER be interested in collecting US stamps, so I plan to end my collection at 2016 with the next stamp expo in the US. I will still work on older issues, so I'm not giving up philately, but the number of new issues pumped out since 1980 or so has been a nail in the coffin for collecting US, IMHO.
I do plan to spend more time in numismatics because kids DO go there for a hobby. Don't blame "surfing the Internet" as the culprit. I have two boys and they have two male cousins. Three of the 4 collect coins. ZERO collect stamps in spite of my obvious interest in stamps. Stamp collecting, not the kids, is the problem.
One area where I see potential for my kids, anyway, is topical collecting. They could learn about a topic AND geography at the same time! So stamp collecting isn't dead or dying, but it is morphing. As governments abuse stamp collectors more and more with new issues, we will adapt and modify our parameters to fit OUR needs. At least I will.
Cheers!
Lars
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re: Death of the Hobby
I am definantaly the only person my age (31) I know that collects stamps. I think most people are too busy. I find that most people have little time between work, kids, facebook, cell phones to do anything let alone a very time consuming and finicky hobby like stamp collection. People often ask me why I do it. When they ask how much stamps are worth and I say 5 cents for most stamps they ask me why I bother. People just don't see it as productive (a chance to make money) and therefor they don't think it is worth their time. I am not sure if the hobby is dead, I think it is probably more of a cyclical thing. We just live in such a fast paced world that most people are much to distracted to sit down and do anything that takes time. I think another factor is that collectors are burnt out after the 90 where we collected everything from dolls to hockeycards to comic books. Ultimately I think collectors will always come back to stamps because they are so perfect for collecting. But for now the collections that were made up in the 90s have a lot of people distracted. Fast paced society just doesn't allow most people the time.
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07:15:12am
re: Death of the Hobby
I am very pessimistic about the future of the hobby, so if you're looking for a rallying cry and balm of hope in the future of the next generations picking it up, don't read on.
It seems to me that most of older collectors (and I include myself, at the cusp of 60, in that group), collected in this pattern in their lifetime: We started collecting as kids because our parents, grandparents, or other relatives collected; our friends collected for the same reason, and that was how we socialized, trading, admiring items, etc.; and as Lars pointed out, there was the intrigue of getting interesting stamped mail. We then hit our teens to 30s and put away the collections for the most part, until in our 40s/50s when we resurrected the hobby.
While we were being a philatelic Rip Van Winkle, the generation being raised during this time didn't have the active role models we had; had friends who were no longer collecting; and mail became increasingly boring, with metered envelopes and bills dominating the daily delivery. As this generation grew up, we were their children's philatelic role models, older uncles, aunts, and grandparents, and their social world changed completely with the boom in electronic interests (read: distracting bright shiny objects) and social media sites. Now kids don't start with the excited anticipation of interesting mail; they have an exciting world of gaming, surfing, and what not on their phone, tablets, computers, etc.
I would be surprised if the hobby survives another decade, but I'm not optimistic it will. The question isn't whether stamp collecting will die, but when and what will happen to all those collections? As dealer/collectors disappear too, it will be at the auction houses where these albums, stock books, boxes of philatelic material get dumped. Prices will fall as fewer bid, and the market will shrink for the remaining burgeoning stock. Common issues deemed of "no value" by some alleged market authority, will be chucked; you can only donate so much to Scout troops, schools projects, and creative artists.
So enjoy your hobby for yourself, and consider educating your next generations about the value of your collection as a family heirloom, not a source of money in the future.
Peter
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re: Death of the Hobby
Ah Peter,
Your words make logical sense, and your outlook a distinct possibility. There is the counter argument that as our leisure time grows, so will interest in collecting/art/hobbies etc. Your advice is certainly sound. Pardon me while I slit my throat!!
Dan C.
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re: Death of the Hobby
I've learned to think in half-decade increments. Any larger spans will fail to anticipate new communication vehicles and new approaches to interaction. The iPad is a mere half-decade old but has revolutionized computing. I say this so that when I reply, I remember that thinking beyond that 5-year horizon is fraught with more unknowables than Rumsfeld could shake a stick at.
In the near-term, philately IS changing, but not necessarily dying. Comparing it to BB cards or coins helpful only to the point where we see what we might steal from them and understand their successes and failures and see how we might employ or avoid them.
Philately's strength comes from its adaptability to the interests of its participants. Where else does one see "collect how you want, what you want," and have a quazillion options. I have started and abandoned a score of major philatelic endeavors, with 50 minor ones in there as well.
That breadth of possibility leads to great health, both for the accumulator and the scholar; the one-of-a-kind collector and the ones who thrive on depth to see differences.
I just hit 60 and among the youngest in my club; but the collectors there are vibrant. And we can all look in SOR's mirror and see a healthy constituency.
I do think that some of the problems noted here are obstacles unlikely to be overcome: stamps aren't seen any more, despite their continued rabbit-like numbers. This both misses the kids who might have been attracted by the Toy Story and Shrek candy and the one-of-a-kind guy who throws up his hands instead of forking over his wallet. Still, there's lots to explore, and the internet provides entree for anyone willing to ask. Just look at the amazing outporing of expertise and generosity from our members: ask a question or need some stamps.... pooooof! people respond.
Anyway, i see no problem in the next 5 years, although our numbers might shrink. I think you'll see what Lars noted: each of us defines the limits of our collections. We'll see if we can add to our ranks.
David
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re: Death of the Hobby
Happy Birthday David, i hope Dan does not slit his own throat..ugh,,pints of blood,as far as i am concerned Italians are not prone to suicide..live evolves but goes on !
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer
08 Jan 2014
10:55:33am
re: Death of the Hobby
This topic has been beat to death on many a forum. The Hobby is dead- The Hobby is dead. Yet demand in quality items and prices increase almost every year. The hobby is not dead it is just taking a different path than most older collectors have traveled including myself. I do see in the future that higher value and grade of stamps will be more of a corporate investment as Art has become. I also see hobby becoming more of a topical society as this area of collecting has grown 10 fold compared to the standard form of filling album pages. Just my 2 cents.
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re: Death of the Hobby
If you back into the philatelic press around 100 years ago, you will find articles and letters to the editors where people are bemoaning the demise of the hobby. Look at all the collecting "fads" that have come and gone over the decades. Philately is still here, and remains.
By the way, one can see the same type of discussions in most of the hobby "mainstream" hobbies as well, doll collecting, model railroading, etc. Those hobbies are still here as well.
Better time spent working on our hobbies and sharing them with others.
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12:31:36pm
re: Death of the Hobby
@Dan:
There is no need to do anything remotely close to that; my point is, each person should enjoy their collections for what they are, our pastime and enjoyable hobby. We tend to get caught up in the thought that no-one else in our families have the remotest interest in what we have, beyond perhaps an avaricious thought of inheriting a fortune. It doesn't matter; if stamp collecting "dies" then it dies. But for the individual collector, it will still be alive. Consider the owners of Beannie Babies. Absolutely no market for them now, so you end up with two groups of people: One group, that decries the "loss of investment" and how no-one else wants the "toys", and the other, that pull out their stuffed toys now and again and enjoy them. Which camp do you want to be in? I choose the latter. And I'll keep my throat intact, because I won't get depressed thinking like the former.
@Ross:
Yes, the topic has been beaten to ... well, death! But I did not ring the death knell for the hobby's demise; I said it WILL die, that, to me, is inevitable. Maybe in a decade, or two, but eventually, it will, as will baseball cards, postcards, etc. Coins are more stable; currency is part of our cultures and besides, you can melt some coins for their inherent metal worth. Burn a stamp, postcard, baseball card, or Beannie Baby and you get ... nada. These only have value in the eyes of the collector, ultimately. So enjoy and fully participate.
It's a more hopeful message than I think I conveyed earlier.
Peter
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re: Death of the Hobby
O.K.Peter, I'm feeling better now. I just don't know what to do with all the knives I was sent!!
All good thoughts,
Dan C.
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re: Death of the Hobby
I am sad to hear that stamp collecting is dead...what are the stats on coin collecting,postcard collecting and ephemera ? I may need something to fall back on !
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re: Death of the Hobby
i hope that cover collecting does not slip away during the night..for Roys sake !
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02:18:35pm
re: Death of the Hobby
Dan, believe it or not, at one time I collected knives! LOL! Nothing fancy, just variations. I lost most of them during one ill-fated move across the country; I'm certain the moving company purposefully misplaced that one box. (they didn't take the stamps; what does that tell you?)
Phil, diversify your collecting portfolio; it isn't just good advice for retirement plans or stock market holdings. The trouble is, I have so many smaller areas of collecting they (1) take up all my available time from stamps, my first love, and (2) I can't get beyond that stage for them, if anything because of cost. My latest thing is some King and Country miniatures. Stop the madness!
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re: Death of the Hobby
cocollectibles, when i left home to go in the service at 19 i had an army of British made toy soldiers..Indian lancers, guys with bearskin hats, Scots etc;. i had a cartridge collection it was fairly easy to get black powder cartridges and changeovers back then. what i really miss the most were my "Tales From the Crypt" comic books from the 1950's . Talk about realism. well anyway 4 years later no one had lost or broken my stamp collection. I stick with the stamps and covers !
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
08 Jan 2014
04:11:38pm
re: Death of the Hobby
Looking down my corridor, the end of which is indiscernable and unlit,
I believe the future will take care of itself and all things in it.
Money-collecting, and in particular coins, seems to be sharing a fate
dissimilar to stamp collecting: hard currency production is shrinking and,
from what I read, is predicted soon (?) to be rarely used as other forms of
electronic currency and payment materialize.
My guess is that stamp collecting will always be a subset of human
activity.
Personally, I feel no compunction to recruit participants
to our hobby.
John Derry
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re: Death of the Hobby
If i do any reading its history related or about stamps...i believe there will always be some folks interested in history and stamps. It won't be like the 1930s to 1950s..But there will always be some of us oddballs going against the wind !
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06:14:10pm
re: Death of the Hobby
Frankly, I'm encouraged by the notes of optimism expressed here! I sincerely hope you are all correct.
Cheers to all,
Peter
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re: Death of the Hobby
I've heard this same story about model train collecting, well, we're still here too! The unfortunate thing about model trains is they use hundreds of times more space than stamps. I may have a lot more stamps than models but the cost of the toy is based on the budget of the collector. My family is more worried about my train collection than the stamps, albeit pretty close to the same value. Stamps I've convinced them is a heirlom, trains were an enjoyable outlet of fun and education and who can put a price on that? When I'm gone, oh well, not my problem...to the delight of whoever gets the stuff.
I would hate to see stamp collecting disappear, it's been loads of fun and I put it away years ago while raising the family I can put it aside for future generations as everything comes and goes in life. Perry
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re: Death of the Hobby
Didn't the hot rods and roadsters go out of fashion for a while ? Now when they have classic and hot rod shows twice a year at the Rhinebeck fairgrounds..people seem willing to pay a high price (to me) for a weekend ticket.
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re: Death of the Hobby
Obviously you will see a roller-coaster pattern for most collectibles (and precious metals to boot)! Stamp collecting won't "die", and if interest wanes, prices will decline to the point that new or re-invigorated buyers step in. Free-market principles will keep things afloat through the Second Bureau (US), but after that there is a lot of "stuff" that might not be worth more that 75% of face mint. Especially the water-activated stamps from the '70s to the '90s.
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re: Death of the Hobby
Well, I finally started something on the discussion board that got a lot of attention. Pardon me, while I break my arm patting myself on the back. I haven't read every post, yet.
I did not publicly disagree with my dealer friend, but I do feel that the reported demise of the hobby is a bit premature. The impression that I am drawing from reading Linn's is that the marketing executives in USPS Headquarters are encouraging the production of new stamps (Harry Potter) in hopes of increasing the interest in the hobby. Their theory is that stamps are a free revenue source. In my opinion, that kind of thinking is more appropriate to the Banana Republics, Former Communist States, and other nations who issued stamps not to carry the mail but to sell to collectors.
My dealer is trying to make a living on Numismatics by buying and selling coins. Given the relatively recent drop in metal prices, he has a sour taste in his mouth. He has pretty much given up on Philately. The real economics in stamp collecting always seemed to be in albums, mounts, hinges, accessories, and catalogs. H.E. Harris did not sell a bag of a thousand stamps for a dollar to sell stamps. He sold the bag to sell the albums, hinges, crystal mounts, glassine envelopes, and other things thought to be essential to the hobby.
I am not sure that the number of serious collectors relative to the population has really changed all that much. In fact, the internet with the concomitant increase in online sources for stamps may actually increase the number of collectors. I have noted an substantial increase in the number of visitors here. I also bet that our membership has increased since it is free to join.
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re: Death of the Hobby
Hey Dan,
I have some really old but nice Barlow's and few newer Case's if you need them. Good for whittling, but not much good for slitting throats.
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re: Death of the Hobby
Perhaps we were talking about stamp collecting in the U.S. Stamp collecting from what i observe is still popular in Canada,Western Europe and Asia.
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re: Death of the Hobby
I have read that collecting in Asia is taking off tremendously.
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re: Death of the Hobby
I'm optimistic about the hobby from my viewpoint, which is being able to acquire decent stamps at cheaper and cheaper prices. I'm pessimistic my stamps will be worth less than the bargain prices I am paying now.
But I wouldn't put much stock in the viewpoint of a brick and mortar dealer. As you said:
"He then pointed to the piles and piles of used stamp albums and stamps that he sells at catalogue no matter what the condition and supplies that are far higher than you can buy on line."
The reason the dealer sees only older folks at his store is they are the only ones willing to pay his prices, which are not competitive with the online venues the "younger" collectors are using. I've gone to retail establishments like this, where the dealer bemoans the lack of interest in his stamps and complains how he can't even get his own children to take an interest in the mountains of philatelic inventory he has. Mention the word "ebay" and these dealers turn red with anger. I won't shop there for stamps as they are just too expensive. On occasion I buy supplies from certain dealers just because its convenient.
The dealers that have internet store-fronts as well, such as Potomac Supplies, seem to have more competitive prices. Potomac Supplies is an exception I'll just mention them because I like them - they've been very helpful and I buy supplies from their brick and mortar store sometimes.
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re: Death of the Hobby
This dealer does or did sell on eBay. And when I said that he sells at catalogue, that is what he marks on his inventory cards. Like most dealers today when he sell bulk lots, I really think that he is trying to get what he paid for the lot out of the sale. Some of his early bulk foreign collections show a bit of promise, but I am not willing to pay his asking price because I just do not have the interest in acquiring foreign stamps.
However, he is not just a brick and mortar dealer. He is aware of the technology and its impact on the market. It is difficult to tell the age of an eBay buyer. Many dealers are angry with eBay because they see inexpensive common stamps offered as more expensive varieties with low ball prices. Most reputable dealers are members of ASDA and APS and can suffer serious repercussions if they do that.
In my opinion, most of the stamp sales on eBay by private individuals go to "dealers" looking to re market the stamp at a higher price. A very reputable dealer told me that he would lose money if he sold anything on eBay for less than $2.00. Either the seller does not know what they are offering or they are deliberately pricing it below market to get rid of the stamp. I am not sure that eBay or any of the on line services is the place to estimate the true retail value of a stamp.
It is worth discussing since that the falling retail value seems to be the primary reason many think the hobby is dying. If retail values fall significantly then dealers can no longer remarket older stamps.
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re: Death of the Hobby
"I am not sure that eBay or any of the on line services is the place to estimate the true retail value of a stamp."
As far as I'm concerned that IS the market (but maybe not for highly valued stamps). The fact that catalogs do not consider it the market may be part of the perception problem: the gulf between what people expect their stamps are worth and what they actually sell for. My viewpoint may be clouded because I have mainly purchased collections up to this point and those were regularly selling for less than 10% of CV, even taking into account the mixed quality. (But those collections typically don't have the highly valued stamps). But when collectors turn to buying collections from Ebay at wholesale prices rather than individual stamps from dealers at "retail" because its a much better deal, that is troublesome for traditional dealers I would think. It probably also indicates there is too much supply (of low to medium value stamps - it still seems hard to find the high value material).
Maybe the dealers that are in trouble are those invested in low to medium value stamps, which are losing value, as opposed to the rarer items, which are retaining value.
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re: Death of the Hobby
I noticed an interesting fact today. If you factor inflation into the equation and purchased a US 1 mint copy in 1980 at full catalog, you would have paid over $8000 in today's dollars. Compare that with $ 3000 full catalog value in 2011. A classic stamp has not even kept pace with inflation.
My full set of Zeps are worth much less than I paid for them.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
12 Jan 2014
03:00:30am
re: Death of the Hobby
I assume you are referring to Scott's guestimates, Les.
I am thinking that during those thirty years didn't Scott do a massive revision in their pricing strategy at least once ?
My forgetter is getting better all the time but I seem to recall a great amount of pricing turmoil in the '80s which might make it near impossible to draw such a comparison.
It would be better to use the bid and asked prices of the day and compare them to a similar bid and asked source today.
According to an annual listing of the Consumer Price Index, which as you may suspect I keep on the small end table adjacent to my bed, an item that cost $0.82 and 4/10ths cents in 1980, was at $2.29 and 8/10ths at the end of 2012 despite, or perhaps as a result of, the recent recession that almost destroyed the country.
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