Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
11:36:35am
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i live by ronsonol
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Hi Everyone;
I've used Ronsonol (White Naptha, Coleman fuel), for many years, but now use the pricey stuff, mostly because of oder, and sefety. I live in a small cabin (500+sqft) and anything you do here, cooking smelly foods, cleaning with ammonia etc. will stink the whole place up! I also heat only with wood, so flammable solvents are not safe.
Another negative is that lighter fluid can cause some inks used on cancellations to run badly. I had this happen to me on dozens of Great Britain Wildings (QEII 50s) cancels.
The pricey stuff is okay, but I use sparingly and keep bottle covered between uses, and pour back any excess.
Happy Sorting
Ken Tall Pines
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The pricey stuff evaporates even from the closed plastic bottle.
For someone that played with toxic chemicals as a child (e.g. mercury) and smoked (and worse habits) I worry little about the possible side-effects of a teaspoon of lighter fluid over the course of an hour once or twice a month in a decently ventilated room. But in confined, closed spaces for extended periods of time I can see the odor being a problem.
Edit: but just because it is expensive and doesn't smell as bad doesn't mean it's not toxic.
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"The pricey stuff is okay, but I use sparingly and keep bottle covered between uses, and pour back any excess."
I'm with Hungary.. I used the pricey stuff once, and got sidetracked, so I kept the bottle closed, and by the time I got back to it, I'd lost a quarter of the bottle, just due to evaporation.
I prefer working with Zippo fluid, which seems to leave less of a lingering odor and seems to have a better evaporation (I've used Ronsonol on some stamps and it seemed to linger in the paper for a lot longer).
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Hi Everyone;
I have experienced that problem to a lesser degree, with the Prinz brand I think. When I noticed this loss I transfered some of it to an old Safemarkâ„¢ 2 oz. bottle, from Rett Distributing Co., and the loss has stopped so far. The balance is stored in a different bottle than that which the Prinz fluid was shipped in.
The problem isn't with the fluid, but the cheap bottle they use. The Safemark has a smooth lip on the bottle and underside of the cap. Additionally there is a cone shaped piece with a flange that acts as a gasket between the bottle and cap.
I'm currently attempting to find someone who still carries this brand of fluid, or maybe an old one from someone's old collection.
Happy sorting
Ken Tall Pines
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I pour the Prinz watermark fluid into an old Harco glass watermark bottle. No evaporation problems at all. That plastic bottle that Prinz uses is not good at all.
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Makazi wrote:
"Anyone have any experience with non-fluid watermark tools? I've seen some that use some kind of light. They are pricey though."
I haven't used this sort of device myself, nor a similar but more expensive one in the SAFE range. Some people swear by them. Others have regretted spending so much money on them. It would seem that the success of these thingies depends on the composition and colour of the stamp paper being examined.
Probably similar results to my own using the Morley Bright Roll-A-Tector and Morley Bright Insta-Tector. These are variations on a theme; a heat welded vinyl sachet containing blue ink..... the stamp is sandwiched between the sachet and a thick plate of glass and a plastic 'spatula' housing a steel roller is then rolled over the sachet.
The ink is concentrated as a darker area where the thinner paper of the watermark lies.
This is all housed in a handy slim little plastic shell (a bit like a miniature pocket cigar case); about 4 inches by 2 inches. Apparently these will detect watermarks on stamps on cover (not tried it myself).
The Insta-Tector is a hinged two part device and uses, instead of the roller: a glass plate, then the ink sachet, a stamp; then a block of plastic. The glass and sachet are set in upper half, through which the watermark will be viewed (or not). The stamp is placed on the lower half, on the plastic block. The top half is closed on the lower half and pressure applied.
These worked pretty well except on those pesky coloured/thick papers.
Nowadays, the ink sachets have deteriorated in quality. The manufacturer, in a pathetic move of meanness, has reduced the amount of ink. So now it's even more difficult to use.
I have resorted to using lighter fuel (petroleum). Probably no better or worse than the others. But again, the dark coloured/thick papers are difficult , if not impossible to detect.
Edit:
I should perhaps qualify my use of the term petroleum here; Contains: Solvent Naptha (petroleum), light aliph.
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Hi Everyone;
To Michael; thank you for the tip about Harco watermark fluid. I googled that and found that they no longer make the fluid, but it is available on a first-come-first-serve basis for only $12.00 for 4oz. bottles. So I bought two, because that is way cheaper than Prinz or Clarity.
Here is the link to their item: http://nokomiscollectibles.com/index.php?page=search&task=det_dir&offset=14&c1=19&gal_id=1&PHPSESSID=lfphabtm
They may or may not still have it available. When I bought 2 of them, they accepted my PayPal funds so I assume they have in stock. I'll let everyone know when and if they arrive.
Happy watermark detecting
Ken Tall Pines
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I bought a Signoscope mostly to help me with difficult colored paper watermarks; mostly useless IMHO. I just could not get it to work any better than Clarity.
Peter
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One thing about Harco watermark fluid. If you look at the picture of the bottle in the link Ken provided, you will see the word "Safety" on the label. This is important. If you get any other Harco fluid, then you can only use it on engraved stamps. If you use the non-safety fluid on photogravure stamps, the ink will run. With the safety fluid, you can use it on any stamp.
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i have a 12 ounce can of Ronsonal still half full after many years...my friend at the stamp shop would want 20 times what i paid for a small bottle of watermark detector !! i remember 55 years ago we used to bathe in drums of carbon tetrachloride degreasing rifle barrels. Why am i still alive ? Or am i ?
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10:26:26pm
And I'll point out again that I have been using Rubbing Alcohol for about fifty years. It is far less expensive, ( Isoprophenol ), a 12oz container here in Hawaii for less than $1.00, and somewhat less flammable.
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"""And I'll point out again that I have been using Rubbing Alcohol for about fifty years. It is far less expensive, ( Isoprophenol ), a 12oz container here in Hawaii for less than $1.00, and somewhat less flammable."""
Charlie, I never thought of using Rubbing Alcohol. Will try it soon, and the scientist in me requires that I also try Hydrogen Peroxide. (wonder if it will bleach the paper?) Reporting when done. rrr...
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Hi y'all;
You are all in the wrong club. Y'all belong in the Amateur Alchemy Club!!! 
Remind me not to buy stamps from your approval books. Were y'all born in test tubes or what?
Anywho I'll just keep using my pricey fluid, cause y'all got your priorities crossed. Most of you don't use all that much fluid (couple ounces or so) a year. We spend more on glassine envelopes than most other collecting supplies. While we are ranting lets rant about something real.
How about Westvaco's decision to switch to bottom flap glassines as opposed to end flaps in order to save a hundredth of a cent per envelope. This has forced some suppliers like Subway and others to switch to Cenvco. Actually Westvaco was acquired by Mead to become MeadWestvaco and in Feb 2011 they sold their envelope division to Cenvaco.
While Mead was in charge, was when they stupidly decided to change a product that has worked for many decades, without bothering to think about how they are used. They quickly realized that suddenly nobody wanted to buy them anymore. geewiz why not??? So they sold that division to Cenvaco, who quickly switched back to the end flaps.
Meanwhile many suppliers are stuck with these useless transition envelopes. The new ones from Cenvaco, are of good quality, and are much more slippery than the others. So don't try to grab 50-100 of them at once unless you like resorting envelopes. They can be had for $30.00-$35.00 per thousand (#3s), if you shop around. So buyer beware! If you decide to buy 1,000 or more at a time, try to call the supplier by phone to verify they are not bottom flap. I didn't and got stuck with 3,000 (#4s) of the *&^%@# things.
In case I lost all of you in the dust of this rant, Here is why these envelopes are useless. When you place many of these envelopes in a shoebox or filecard drawer or other filing system, they get caught on the bottom flap of the envelope just in front of where you are trying to jam another envelope in. They then become bent bottom flaps, even more likely to snag the next time.
I have seen these envelopes on sale for especially low prices, and thought them a great bargain, until I saw photos of all the bottom flaps.
I have borderline asthma from years of smoking. I quit about 18 years ago. Should'a quit sooner tho. So I'll use whatever fluid works and doesn't risk my health.
Happy collecting
Ken Tall Pines
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Ralph, hydrogen peroxide won't bleach the paper for the short time that it will be immersed in the liquid. It will however, remove the sulphurisation (wrongly called "oxidation" by many) that occurs with orange and brown inks on many older stamps. Leave the stamp in the fluid for about five minutes, then wash it off in cool water. It'll look as good as new.
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Hi Everyone;
@ Michael
I've heard of ways to clean stamps, but never heard of Hydrogen Peroxide. Is there a mixing ratio, do you know, so that the solution isn't too strong?
I've heard of but never tried using a couple drops of Dawn Dish Soap in the soaking water. The surfactants and whetting agents, are supposed to be good for getting grime and greasy fingerprints off, and generally brightening the stamps for that "post office fresh" look.
In another blog someone suggested vinegar as a brightener for oxidized ink colors. but I do not remember if he gave a mixing ratio.
For anyone who has looked at my stamps in approvals, I can certify that I have never used anything but room temperature water. I usually do 2-4 rinses in clean water, until the water is crystal clear. This alone usually seems to produce a nice bright final results.
I know only enough about chemistry to be dangerous.
Sorry everyone if I got too far off-topic.
Ken Tall Pines
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I have heard of lemon juice...but for those of us who agonize about acid paper...lemon juice!!!
(don't forget the wash, rinse and spin dry cycle after)
rrr...
By the way, I like using a really strong light and a black background for watermark detection, and no liquid. Some years ago I saw someone do a whole analysis on watermarks using a scanner..yes a scanner, which apparently can be used to show the watermark. But what do I know?
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You can use the hydrogen peroxide straight out of the bottle if it is diluted Most are diluted to either 3%, 5% or 7% solution with water. Put the stamp face up in a watermark tray and pour the solution over it. Make sure that the top of the stamp is covered with the solution. Then, just check back every minute or so. Leave the stamp in the solution until the color returns to the hue you want. Remove the stamp and thoroughly rinse it off in cool water. Then set it face down on paper towel, blotting paper, etc. to dry. As I stated, it will do just fine to remove the sulphurisation of the oranges, yellows and browns. It isn't oxidation, because the ink pigments do not contain iron.
Note that if you do this, the stamp color generally returns to its original hue. However, since the solution is diluted with water, if you use it on unused or mint stamps, the gum will wash off. If you use it on anniline inks, the ink will run.
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Hi Rrraphy;
When using the scanner for watermark detection, it depends on what brand of scanner, and how good the scanner software is. Also if you have an application like PhotoShop, PhotoStudio, or Corel PhotoPaint, you can experiment by adjusting Brightness/Contrast, and color channels.
Umax is one of the best scanners available, because that is basically all they make. Their scanner has settings for Brightness/Contrast, and Highlight/Shadows, that you can adjust before the scan, which may work better than trying to tweak in a PhotoShop application after the fact.
I have never tried this yet, because my computer is old and so is my scanner. If my scanner lamp burns out or the belt drive breaks, I would need a new scanner. A new scanner's software would probably not be supported by my WIN98 platform.
There is a beer in the fridge that's calling my name, and I have some Imperial Stormtroopers to kill or capture, so gotta go.
Happy sorting
Ken Tall Pines
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On a good percentage of stamps just holding the stamp up to a bright light (front of stamp facing the light) will tell you if it is watermarked and what the watermark is. No fluid necessary!
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I need software to use with my scanner that will tell me what the watermark is. Until that comes along, I don't collect watermarks!
Lars
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Sit in the bath tub long enough and you'll collect some!
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I'm sure I read somewhere that one sets the scanner to 'greyscale' in high resolution and then adjust the contrast.
Is this true I wonder? It just seems too simple to me.
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Hi Everyone;
Are we havin' a bunch of fun on this thread or what?
@ Michael:
Yes You're right about holding them up to the light, and all the beginners should try to learn to do this if possible. I have done this whenever I'm in a hurry and the watermarks are different enough to make it easy to spot, GvR Script vs multiple GvR block letters.
@ Ningpo:
Yes I have heard that setting on Greyscale and bumping contrast up until they appear, works fairly well. So go ahead a try a few experiments.
@ beginners:
Try to learn how to use backlighting, to do this. It helps a lot if you shield your eyes from the direct light. You don't need any chemicals or expensive gadgets to buy.
I once needed a light table to lay out the conductors for a computer circuit board. I removed a plate glass lower shelf from a end table, and placed it on the dining room table. I then pulled apart the table were the extra table leaf would go. Underneath the table opening I suspended a florescent light fixture, facing upwards. I got the circuit board finished in record time!
Then I wondered would it be useful for anything else? So I grabbed a handful of stamps and found I could identify quite a few. I reasoned that the diffuse light from the florescent fixture was less glare than incandescent lights. Next I wondered what would happen if I diffused the light even more? So I added a sheet of thin Mylar drafting film for inked drawings, available at any office or drafting supply store. In order for the drafting film to accept ink, it has to be frosted on one side. There are many other things that might also work instead, like baker's parchment, common tracing paper, or thin tissue paper, used to pack fragile items in.
Most of the time when I need to sort by watermark, I just place the stamp on a dark surface to check. If not enough shows to be sure, I hold up to the light. If I still can't be sure, I place in a separate pile for checking with fluid.
If I have more than a few dozen stamps to check, I use a little trick that makes everything go faster. I have 2" x 2" cardstock samples that I have printed on my inkjet, with the actual watermark from Scott's catalog. I make one for each watermark I'm sorting. These samples were reproduced WITHOUT permission from the copyright holder of course.
Well gotta go, it's time to split wood today, for next winter.
Ken Tall Pines
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"Then I wondered would it be useful for anything else? So I grabbed a handful of stamps and found I could identify quite a few. I reasoned that the diffuse light from the florescent fixture was less glare than incandescent lights. Next I wondered what would happen if I diffused the light even more? So I added a sheet of thin Mylar drafting film for inked drawings, available at any office or drafting supply store. In order for the drafting film to accept ink, it has to be frosted on one side. There are many other things that might also work instead, like baker's parchment, common tracing paper, or thin tissue paper, used to pack fragile items in."
Ken,
You've given me an idea. I have two types of slide (transparency)viewers; the sort of machine that has a hopper for the slides. These are fed in one by one by sliding a carrier into the machine. The slide is backlit through a diffused screen and the image enlarged by a plastic magnifier on the top.
I wonder if there is any prospect of this working with a little modification? Is the incandescent mini light bulb a problem though?
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"Sit in the bath tub long enough and you'll collect some!"
Very funny Mr. Numbers, but the last bath I recall was 1987 at the Emily Morgan Hotel in San Antonio. I'm strictly a shower person (every day at least). Sometimes two depending on what I do, but I absolutely HATE those 3 shower days! It always seems like I didn't plan things well enough to require a THIRD shower in one day. I also hate zero shower days if I'm not primitive camping. That means I have the flu or have had surgery.
How's THAT for TMI!
Lars
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Hi Ningpo;
I may not be much of a chemist, but I am a science nut, and I love tinkering and experimenting. So you should go ahead and slip some stamps in there and see what there is to discover. Who knows, you may just invent the next better watermark detector and become filthy rich. Find someone, with good engineering savvy, and someone who is entrepreneurial, and they can mentor and guide you along. Try different bulbs or light sources if possible.
I was in the US Navy on board the Valcour AGF-1 (auxiliary flagship), when I was promoted to ship's photographer. I was responsible for press release photos for the captain, ID photos for the crew, and production of a cruise book. A cruise book is kinda like a year book, only instead of school activities, it had our many ports-of-call, and my shipmates doing stupid things in the worlds pubs.
I had a problem tho. I had no enlarger for printing the negatives. I had a 35mm camera and lots of gadgets, but no way to print. I did find a 5" x 4" Graflex large format camera. I wondered if it might be possible to use it backwards as a print enlarger.
I had the guys in the electrician's shop put together a light tight hood to house a small lamp. The lamp would be aimed at the ground glass viewing screen that one would look at in order to focus the lens. We then went to the carpenters shop and fashioned a wooden film carrier that would be used to hold strips of 35mm B/W negatives between the light source and the lens.
It took a number of days of experiments to get the settings just right for f-stop settings, and exposure times. I had no choice, having told the captain that we felt it could be done.
If I failed to succeed I would have been transfered back to my old job. This new position was a gravy job. Instead of handling mooring lines when coming into port I was required to be on the bridge with the officers to get shots of each harbor we arrived at. When the guys went on liberty to hit the bars I was required to join them for lots of photos. War is hell ain't it?
Just keepin' the world safe for drunken sailors! 
Ken Tall Pines
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03:24:48am
"....
Anywho I'll just keep using my pricey fluid, cause y'all got your priorities crossed. Most of you don't use all that much fluid (couple ounces or so) a year. ...."
Ken, I use several 12 or 16 ounce bottles of Rubbing Alcohol every year. It works great on pre-Machin British stamps such as the Wildings which have three distinct watermarks, watermarks that may be inverted or not and sideways either right or left.
Now that the Brits and Aussies have switched almost entirely to self stick I use it even more and of course it works quite well for many US self sticks, not for watermark detection, but to release the used stamps from the remains of the envelope. But good luck with your "pricy fluid."
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Michael I'd love to see how well you're able to do the "hold the stamp up to the light" to identify the difference between the two sun Watermark types on the Argentinian stamps. Trust me, you'll see the sun part, but there is almost NO way to tell the difference in the rays (broken/bent vs. straight) without fluid (and even then, many times that's a nightmare!)
Although I've never tried it with the Hydrogren Peroxide. I might try it with some of my Spanish stamps I'm working on now. I've got enough of those to work with to lose a couple.
I've tried the scanner trick, but I could never get it to work (I've tried GIMP and Photoshop for the shades, but never got it to to work).
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I did say, "On a good percentage of stamps..." There are certainly many stamps that have watermark types that are very similar, and require a dip in the fluid to truly verify.
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Michael's on the right track for sure. I first lay the stamp on a dark black background to try and identify the WM, then use light at varying angles and resort to lighter fluid only when necessary. Success of non-fluid methods depends on the country, issue and WM.
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Hi Everyone;
The Harco Safety, watermark fluid mentioned in my earlier reply in this thread, has arrived, (both bottles). It even comes with a free black plastic watermark tray!! It has the same cone shaped nylon gasket seal and is very inexpensive at just $12.00 for 4 ounces!! I don't know how much they have left tho. It was stated that a limited supply was available, on a first-come-first-serve basis. It is no longer in production.
Happy sorting
Ken Tall Pines
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05:09:05am
" .... inexpensive at just $12.00 for 4 ounces!! ...."
Compared to about $1.oo for 12 oz of rubbing alcohol. No need for a wash cycle either. Available at drug stores and supermarkets everywhere in the USA. Dries within three to five minutes. I have been using it for almost fifty years with no serious effect to me or harm to the stamps. Of course the former is debatable
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
09 Jul 2014
11:36:35am
I'll keep using good old Ronsonal rather than pay $15+ for a 4oz (118ml) bottle of Clarity or Prinz watermark fluid. Any chemists out there who can recommend safe alternatives to benzene?
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
i live by ronsonol
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Hi Everyone;
I've used Ronsonol (White Naptha, Coleman fuel), for many years, but now use the pricey stuff, mostly because of oder, and sefety. I live in a small cabin (500+sqft) and anything you do here, cooking smelly foods, cleaning with ammonia etc. will stink the whole place up! I also heat only with wood, so flammable solvents are not safe.
Another negative is that lighter fluid can cause some inks used on cancellations to run badly. I had this happen to me on dozens of Great Britain Wildings (QEII 50s) cancels.
The pricey stuff is okay, but I use sparingly and keep bottle covered between uses, and pour back any excess.
Happy Sorting
Ken Tall Pines
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
The pricey stuff evaporates even from the closed plastic bottle.
For someone that played with toxic chemicals as a child (e.g. mercury) and smoked (and worse habits) I worry little about the possible side-effects of a teaspoon of lighter fluid over the course of an hour once or twice a month in a decently ventilated room. But in confined, closed spaces for extended periods of time I can see the odor being a problem.
Edit: but just because it is expensive and doesn't smell as bad doesn't mean it's not toxic.
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
"The pricey stuff is okay, but I use sparingly and keep bottle covered between uses, and pour back any excess."
I'm with Hungary.. I used the pricey stuff once, and got sidetracked, so I kept the bottle closed, and by the time I got back to it, I'd lost a quarter of the bottle, just due to evaporation.
I prefer working with Zippo fluid, which seems to leave less of a lingering odor and seems to have a better evaporation (I've used Ronsonol on some stamps and it seemed to linger in the paper for a lot longer).
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Hi Everyone;
I have experienced that problem to a lesser degree, with the Prinz brand I think. When I noticed this loss I transfered some of it to an old Safemarkâ„¢ 2 oz. bottle, from Rett Distributing Co., and the loss has stopped so far. The balance is stored in a different bottle than that which the Prinz fluid was shipped in.
The problem isn't with the fluid, but the cheap bottle they use. The Safemark has a smooth lip on the bottle and underside of the cap. Additionally there is a cone shaped piece with a flange that acts as a gasket between the bottle and cap.
I'm currently attempting to find someone who still carries this brand of fluid, or maybe an old one from someone's old collection.
Happy sorting
Ken Tall Pines
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
I pour the Prinz watermark fluid into an old Harco glass watermark bottle. No evaporation problems at all. That plastic bottle that Prinz uses is not good at all.
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Makazi wrote:
"Anyone have any experience with non-fluid watermark tools? I've seen some that use some kind of light. They are pricey though."
I haven't used this sort of device myself, nor a similar but more expensive one in the SAFE range. Some people swear by them. Others have regretted spending so much money on them. It would seem that the success of these thingies depends on the composition and colour of the stamp paper being examined.
Probably similar results to my own using the Morley Bright Roll-A-Tector and Morley Bright Insta-Tector. These are variations on a theme; a heat welded vinyl sachet containing blue ink..... the stamp is sandwiched between the sachet and a thick plate of glass and a plastic 'spatula' housing a steel roller is then rolled over the sachet.
The ink is concentrated as a darker area where the thinner paper of the watermark lies.
This is all housed in a handy slim little plastic shell (a bit like a miniature pocket cigar case); about 4 inches by 2 inches. Apparently these will detect watermarks on stamps on cover (not tried it myself).
The Insta-Tector is a hinged two part device and uses, instead of the roller: a glass plate, then the ink sachet, a stamp; then a block of plastic. The glass and sachet are set in upper half, through which the watermark will be viewed (or not). The stamp is placed on the lower half, on the plastic block. The top half is closed on the lower half and pressure applied.
These worked pretty well except on those pesky coloured/thick papers.
Nowadays, the ink sachets have deteriorated in quality. The manufacturer, in a pathetic move of meanness, has reduced the amount of ink. So now it's even more difficult to use.
I have resorted to using lighter fuel (petroleum). Probably no better or worse than the others. But again, the dark coloured/thick papers are difficult , if not impossible to detect.
Edit:
I should perhaps qualify my use of the term petroleum here; Contains: Solvent Naptha (petroleum), light aliph.
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Hi Everyone;
To Michael; thank you for the tip about Harco watermark fluid. I googled that and found that they no longer make the fluid, but it is available on a first-come-first-serve basis for only $12.00 for 4oz. bottles. So I bought two, because that is way cheaper than Prinz or Clarity.
Here is the link to their item: http://nokomiscollectibles.com/index.php?page=search&task=det_dir&offset=14&c1=19&gal_id=1&PHPSESSID=lfphabtm
They may or may not still have it available. When I bought 2 of them, they accepted my PayPal funds so I assume they have in stock. I'll let everyone know when and if they arrive.
Happy watermark detecting
Ken Tall Pines
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05:07:18pm
re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
I bought a Signoscope mostly to help me with difficult colored paper watermarks; mostly useless IMHO. I just could not get it to work any better than Clarity.
Peter
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
One thing about Harco watermark fluid. If you look at the picture of the bottle in the link Ken provided, you will see the word "Safety" on the label. This is important. If you get any other Harco fluid, then you can only use it on engraved stamps. If you use the non-safety fluid on photogravure stamps, the ink will run. With the safety fluid, you can use it on any stamp.
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
i have a 12 ounce can of Ronsonal still half full after many years...my friend at the stamp shop would want 20 times what i paid for a small bottle of watermark detector !! i remember 55 years ago we used to bathe in drums of carbon tetrachloride degreasing rifle barrels. Why am i still alive ? Or am i ?
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
11 Jul 2014
10:26:26pm
re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
And I'll point out again that I have been using Rubbing Alcohol for about fifty years. It is far less expensive, ( Isoprophenol ), a 12oz container here in Hawaii for less than $1.00, and somewhat less flammable.
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
12 Jul 2014
10:39:49am
re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
"""And I'll point out again that I have been using Rubbing Alcohol for about fifty years. It is far less expensive, ( Isoprophenol ), a 12oz container here in Hawaii for less than $1.00, and somewhat less flammable."""
Charlie, I never thought of using Rubbing Alcohol. Will try it soon, and the scientist in me requires that I also try Hydrogen Peroxide. (wonder if it will bleach the paper?) Reporting when done. rrr...
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Hi y'all;
You are all in the wrong club. Y'all belong in the Amateur Alchemy Club!!!
Remind me not to buy stamps from your approval books. Were y'all born in test tubes or what?
Anywho I'll just keep using my pricey fluid, cause y'all got your priorities crossed. Most of you don't use all that much fluid (couple ounces or so) a year. We spend more on glassine envelopes than most other collecting supplies. While we are ranting lets rant about something real.
How about Westvaco's decision to switch to bottom flap glassines as opposed to end flaps in order to save a hundredth of a cent per envelope. This has forced some suppliers like Subway and others to switch to Cenvco. Actually Westvaco was acquired by Mead to become MeadWestvaco and in Feb 2011 they sold their envelope division to Cenvaco.
While Mead was in charge, was when they stupidly decided to change a product that has worked for many decades, without bothering to think about how they are used. They quickly realized that suddenly nobody wanted to buy them anymore. geewiz why not??? So they sold that division to Cenvaco, who quickly switched back to the end flaps.
Meanwhile many suppliers are stuck with these useless transition envelopes. The new ones from Cenvaco, are of good quality, and are much more slippery than the others. So don't try to grab 50-100 of them at once unless you like resorting envelopes. They can be had for $30.00-$35.00 per thousand (#3s), if you shop around. So buyer beware! If you decide to buy 1,000 or more at a time, try to call the supplier by phone to verify they are not bottom flap. I didn't and got stuck with 3,000 (#4s) of the *&^%@# things.
In case I lost all of you in the dust of this rant, Here is why these envelopes are useless. When you place many of these envelopes in a shoebox or filecard drawer or other filing system, they get caught on the bottom flap of the envelope just in front of where you are trying to jam another envelope in. They then become bent bottom flaps, even more likely to snag the next time.
I have seen these envelopes on sale for especially low prices, and thought them a great bargain, until I saw photos of all the bottom flaps.
I have borderline asthma from years of smoking. I quit about 18 years ago. Should'a quit sooner tho. So I'll use whatever fluid works and doesn't risk my health.
Happy collecting
Ken Tall Pines
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Ralph, hydrogen peroxide won't bleach the paper for the short time that it will be immersed in the liquid. It will however, remove the sulphurisation (wrongly called "oxidation" by many) that occurs with orange and brown inks on many older stamps. Leave the stamp in the fluid for about five minutes, then wash it off in cool water. It'll look as good as new.
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Hi Everyone;
@ Michael
I've heard of ways to clean stamps, but never heard of Hydrogen Peroxide. Is there a mixing ratio, do you know, so that the solution isn't too strong?
I've heard of but never tried using a couple drops of Dawn Dish Soap in the soaking water. The surfactants and whetting agents, are supposed to be good for getting grime and greasy fingerprints off, and generally brightening the stamps for that "post office fresh" look.
In another blog someone suggested vinegar as a brightener for oxidized ink colors. but I do not remember if he gave a mixing ratio.
For anyone who has looked at my stamps in approvals, I can certify that I have never used anything but room temperature water. I usually do 2-4 rinses in clean water, until the water is crystal clear. This alone usually seems to produce a nice bright final results.
I know only enough about chemistry to be dangerous.
Sorry everyone if I got too far off-topic.
Ken Tall Pines
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
12 Jul 2014
07:13:21pm
re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
I have heard of lemon juice...but for those of us who agonize about acid paper...lemon juice!!!
(don't forget the wash, rinse and spin dry cycle after)
rrr...
By the way, I like using a really strong light and a black background for watermark detection, and no liquid. Some years ago I saw someone do a whole analysis on watermarks using a scanner..yes a scanner, which apparently can be used to show the watermark. But what do I know?
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
You can use the hydrogen peroxide straight out of the bottle if it is diluted Most are diluted to either 3%, 5% or 7% solution with water. Put the stamp face up in a watermark tray and pour the solution over it. Make sure that the top of the stamp is covered with the solution. Then, just check back every minute or so. Leave the stamp in the solution until the color returns to the hue you want. Remove the stamp and thoroughly rinse it off in cool water. Then set it face down on paper towel, blotting paper, etc. to dry. As I stated, it will do just fine to remove the sulphurisation of the oranges, yellows and browns. It isn't oxidation, because the ink pigments do not contain iron.
Note that if you do this, the stamp color generally returns to its original hue. However, since the solution is diluted with water, if you use it on unused or mint stamps, the gum will wash off. If you use it on anniline inks, the ink will run.
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Hi Rrraphy;
When using the scanner for watermark detection, it depends on what brand of scanner, and how good the scanner software is. Also if you have an application like PhotoShop, PhotoStudio, or Corel PhotoPaint, you can experiment by adjusting Brightness/Contrast, and color channels.
Umax is one of the best scanners available, because that is basically all they make. Their scanner has settings for Brightness/Contrast, and Highlight/Shadows, that you can adjust before the scan, which may work better than trying to tweak in a PhotoShop application after the fact.
I have never tried this yet, because my computer is old and so is my scanner. If my scanner lamp burns out or the belt drive breaks, I would need a new scanner. A new scanner's software would probably not be supported by my WIN98 platform.
There is a beer in the fridge that's calling my name, and I have some Imperial Stormtroopers to kill or capture, so gotta go.
Happy sorting
Ken Tall Pines
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
On a good percentage of stamps just holding the stamp up to a bright light (front of stamp facing the light) will tell you if it is watermarked and what the watermark is. No fluid necessary!
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
I need software to use with my scanner that will tell me what the watermark is. Until that comes along, I don't collect watermarks!
Lars
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Sit in the bath tub long enough and you'll collect some!
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
I'm sure I read somewhere that one sets the scanner to 'greyscale' in high resolution and then adjust the contrast.
Is this true I wonder? It just seems too simple to me.
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Hi Everyone;
Are we havin' a bunch of fun on this thread or what?
@ Michael:
Yes You're right about holding them up to the light, and all the beginners should try to learn to do this if possible. I have done this whenever I'm in a hurry and the watermarks are different enough to make it easy to spot, GvR Script vs multiple GvR block letters.
@ Ningpo:
Yes I have heard that setting on Greyscale and bumping contrast up until they appear, works fairly well. So go ahead a try a few experiments.
@ beginners:
Try to learn how to use backlighting, to do this. It helps a lot if you shield your eyes from the direct light. You don't need any chemicals or expensive gadgets to buy.
I once needed a light table to lay out the conductors for a computer circuit board. I removed a plate glass lower shelf from a end table, and placed it on the dining room table. I then pulled apart the table were the extra table leaf would go. Underneath the table opening I suspended a florescent light fixture, facing upwards. I got the circuit board finished in record time!
Then I wondered would it be useful for anything else? So I grabbed a handful of stamps and found I could identify quite a few. I reasoned that the diffuse light from the florescent fixture was less glare than incandescent lights. Next I wondered what would happen if I diffused the light even more? So I added a sheet of thin Mylar drafting film for inked drawings, available at any office or drafting supply store. In order for the drafting film to accept ink, it has to be frosted on one side. There are many other things that might also work instead, like baker's parchment, common tracing paper, or thin tissue paper, used to pack fragile items in.
Most of the time when I need to sort by watermark, I just place the stamp on a dark surface to check. If not enough shows to be sure, I hold up to the light. If I still can't be sure, I place in a separate pile for checking with fluid.
If I have more than a few dozen stamps to check, I use a little trick that makes everything go faster. I have 2" x 2" cardstock samples that I have printed on my inkjet, with the actual watermark from Scott's catalog. I make one for each watermark I'm sorting. These samples were reproduced WITHOUT permission from the copyright holder of course.
Well gotta go, it's time to split wood today, for next winter.
Ken Tall Pines
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
"Then I wondered would it be useful for anything else? So I grabbed a handful of stamps and found I could identify quite a few. I reasoned that the diffuse light from the florescent fixture was less glare than incandescent lights. Next I wondered what would happen if I diffused the light even more? So I added a sheet of thin Mylar drafting film for inked drawings, available at any office or drafting supply store. In order for the drafting film to accept ink, it has to be frosted on one side. There are many other things that might also work instead, like baker's parchment, common tracing paper, or thin tissue paper, used to pack fragile items in."
Ken,
You've given me an idea. I have two types of slide (transparency)viewers; the sort of machine that has a hopper for the slides. These are fed in one by one by sliding a carrier into the machine. The slide is backlit through a diffused screen and the image enlarged by a plastic magnifier on the top.
I wonder if there is any prospect of this working with a little modification? Is the incandescent mini light bulb a problem though?
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
"Sit in the bath tub long enough and you'll collect some!"
Very funny Mr. Numbers, but the last bath I recall was 1987 at the Emily Morgan Hotel in San Antonio. I'm strictly a shower person (every day at least). Sometimes two depending on what I do, but I absolutely HATE those 3 shower days! It always seems like I didn't plan things well enough to require a THIRD shower in one day. I also hate zero shower days if I'm not primitive camping. That means I have the flu or have had surgery.
How's THAT for TMI!
Lars
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Hi Ningpo;
I may not be much of a chemist, but I am a science nut, and I love tinkering and experimenting. So you should go ahead and slip some stamps in there and see what there is to discover. Who knows, you may just invent the next better watermark detector and become filthy rich. Find someone, with good engineering savvy, and someone who is entrepreneurial, and they can mentor and guide you along. Try different bulbs or light sources if possible.
I was in the US Navy on board the Valcour AGF-1 (auxiliary flagship), when I was promoted to ship's photographer. I was responsible for press release photos for the captain, ID photos for the crew, and production of a cruise book. A cruise book is kinda like a year book, only instead of school activities, it had our many ports-of-call, and my shipmates doing stupid things in the worlds pubs.
I had a problem tho. I had no enlarger for printing the negatives. I had a 35mm camera and lots of gadgets, but no way to print. I did find a 5" x 4" Graflex large format camera. I wondered if it might be possible to use it backwards as a print enlarger.
I had the guys in the electrician's shop put together a light tight hood to house a small lamp. The lamp would be aimed at the ground glass viewing screen that one would look at in order to focus the lens. We then went to the carpenters shop and fashioned a wooden film carrier that would be used to hold strips of 35mm B/W negatives between the light source and the lens.
It took a number of days of experiments to get the settings just right for f-stop settings, and exposure times. I had no choice, having told the captain that we felt it could be done.
If I failed to succeed I would have been transfered back to my old job. This new position was a gravy job. Instead of handling mooring lines when coming into port I was required to be on the bridge with the officers to get shots of each harbor we arrived at. When the guys went on liberty to hit the bars I was required to join them for lots of photos. War is hell ain't it?
Just keepin' the world safe for drunken sailors!
Ken Tall Pines
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
14 Jul 2014
03:24:48am
re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
"....
Anywho I'll just keep using my pricey fluid, cause y'all got your priorities crossed. Most of you don't use all that much fluid (couple ounces or so) a year. ...."
Ken, I use several 12 or 16 ounce bottles of Rubbing Alcohol every year. It works great on pre-Machin British stamps such as the Wildings which have three distinct watermarks, watermarks that may be inverted or not and sideways either right or left.
Now that the Brits and Aussies have switched almost entirely to self stick I use it even more and of course it works quite well for many US self sticks, not for watermark detection, but to release the used stamps from the remains of the envelope. But good luck with your "pricy fluid."
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Michael I'd love to see how well you're able to do the "hold the stamp up to the light" to identify the difference between the two sun Watermark types on the Argentinian stamps. Trust me, you'll see the sun part, but there is almost NO way to tell the difference in the rays (broken/bent vs. straight) without fluid (and even then, many times that's a nightmare!)
Although I've never tried it with the Hydrogren Peroxide. I might try it with some of my Spanish stamps I'm working on now. I've got enough of those to work with to lose a couple.
I've tried the scanner trick, but I could never get it to work (I've tried GIMP and Photoshop for the shades, but never got it to to work).
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
I did say, "On a good percentage of stamps..." There are certainly many stamps that have watermark types that are very similar, and require a dip in the fluid to truly verify.
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Michael's on the right track for sure. I first lay the stamp on a dark black background to try and identify the WM, then use light at varying angles and resort to lighter fluid only when necessary. Success of non-fluid methods depends on the country, issue and WM.
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re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
Hi Everyone;
The Harco Safety, watermark fluid mentioned in my earlier reply in this thread, has arrived, (both bottles). It even comes with a free black plastic watermark tray!! It has the same cone shaped nylon gasket seal and is very inexpensive at just $12.00 for 4 ounces!! I don't know how much they have left tho. It was stated that a limited supply was available, on a first-come-first-serve basis. It is no longer in production.
Happy sorting
Ken Tall Pines
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
31 Aug 2014
05:09:05am
re: Any inexpensive watermark fluid alternatives (other than lighter fluid) out there?
" .... inexpensive at just $12.00 for 4 ounces!! ...."
Compared to about $1.oo for 12 oz of rubbing alcohol. No need for a wash cycle either. Available at drug stores and supermarkets everywhere in the USA. Dries within three to five minutes. I have been using it for almost fifty years with no serious effect to me or harm to the stamps. Of course the former is debatable
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